MA61 with 1GZ-Fe swap

[MWP]

did you know the 20V 4AGE head bolts to the 7AFE toyota block? one is a G head, the other an F. why can it not work in this situation?

Because they are two completely different series of engines.
A quick example: 3UZ-FE
3 = engine revision number
UZ = engine series (belt driven V8)
F = toyota narrow angle head
E = EFI

And again: 2JZ-GTE
2 = engine revision
JZ = engine series (belt driven I6)
G = yamaha wide angle head
T = turbo
E = EFI

You can sometimes swap parts between revisions of the same engine series.
Swapping parts between different series will pretty much never work.

 

[Pro]

but we're not talking about a UZ V8 vs a 6 pot head - we're talking a GZ V12 head and 2x 6 pot heads.

the 7AFE is a 4 cylinder and the 4AGE is a 4 cylinder from two totally different families of engine (even the bock heights are different) - yet the only thing needed to make the two come together is a 4AGE timing belt and crank pulley with 2mm machined off the idler pulley to let the belt fit.

why can we not look at fitting any JZ series 6cyl head to the V12 GZ? no doubt in my mind you will need a custom length belt made up to drive the cams along with a custom inlet manifold - but that may be a small price to pay for someone who can only source a block.

if someone can post up a photo of a GZ head gasket and a JZ series head (both 1JZ and 2JZ) then we will be able to determine for sure.

 

[JustenGT8]

but we're not talking about a UZ V8 vs a 6 pot head - we're talking a GZ V12 head and 2x 6 pot heads.

the 7AFE is a 4 cylinder and the 4AGE is a 4 cylinder from two totally different families of engine (even the bock heights are different) - yet the only thing needed to make the two come together is a 4AGE timing belt and crank pulley with 2mm machined off the idler pulley to let the belt fit.

why can we not look at fitting any JZ series 6cyl head to the V12 GZ? no doubt in my mind you will need a custom length belt made up to drive the cams along with a custom inlet manifold - but that may be a small price to pay for someone who can only source a block.

if someone can post up a photo of a GZ head gasket and a JZ series head (both 1JZ and 2JZ) then we will be able to determine for sure.

Sorry Pro but your example is NOT 2 different engine series...they are both 'A' series engines.

MWP is on the monet with this one....not only don't they fit, it was never gonna happen with one being a G series and the other a J series.

Now, this does beg the question as to whether a 1G head might fit i suspect not as they aren't a mirror casting (like the UZ head) which is what is required for a V engine...eh ;-)

 

[Pro]

i just don't see why toyota would manufacture a whole new head for this engine - surely it would have to be close to a 1JZ or 1GG head.

mirror casting would be a biatch though, but i guess no different to fitting the GA16DE heads to the 3.5L rover V8...

 

[JustenGT8]

Why not, they do heaps of one offs? Sure they are known for good interchangeability but they are also happy enough to design one offs if it's needed. A top end luxo barge like this is so different to pretty well anything else they just made what they needed....not to mention such a prestige car shouldn't have any bits from the scrap bin, so to speak

 

[Peewee]

i suspect not as they aren't a mirror casting (like the UZ head) which is what is required for a V engine...eh ;-)

1UZ's aren't mirror casting. They are identical casts.

 

[cjsupra90]

1UZ's aren't mirror casting. They are identical casts.

Pre VVTI that is... VVTI 1uz's are mirror casting...

 

[JustenGT8]

1UZ's aren't mirror casting. They are identical casts.

Yeah not well explained, i meant mirror as in reverseable which JZ heads aren't.

 

[Jake Breyck]

read next post.

 

[Jake Breyck]

mate - have you actually put a 2JZ head on the 1GZFE?

or even compared head gaskets?

if you haven't, then you should probably refrain from posting on the subject.

if you have, then my apologies.

discouraging people to try stuff, just because you "think" it won't work, is not on. discouraging people to not try something, because you've compared the two physically - well, if you would expand on your findings as to why then maybe someone else could come up with a solution - but at least you've got reason.

Ok first you need to learn how to read before flying off one someone like your god on the subject and they know nothing and need to be put into there place.

Are the heads/cams unique or two 2JZ heads on these engines. What about bore and stroke - are they 2JZ specs. How much aftermarket gear is available?

I replayed to this. where his wording is questioning If the head are already the same as a 2JZ head, He didn't ask if a 2jz head could be bolted to it.

so i replied directly to the question, i would not at all even contemplating a head swap at that time. so I'm not at all required to be open to anyone personal skills with motor hybrids.

Its clear they are not the same, F head G head = not same. 5L / 2 = 2.5 3L / 1 = 3 = not the same. IE the heads nore the bore and stroke = 2jz specs but as i said it May match 1jz bore and stroke.

Second having at least a basic understanding of Toyota's naming scheme would come in handy at this moment something you apparently don't have illustrated by this little jem you posted.

did you know the 20V 4AGE head bolts to the 7AFE toyota block? one is a G head, the other an F. why can it not work in this situation?

As a matter of fact, i did because Ive built one of these motors. I know all about what it takes to make one. its a lot more then the timing belt, but easily doable. Ive also Hybridized a 3s head on a 5s block that worked out well too but 7A-FE and 4A-GE as 5S-FE and 3S-GTE means it will work with minimal mods.

So seriously don't get on my case when your comprehension skills are lacking and your Toyota motor naming knowledge is also questionable.

 

[Pro]

i don't pretend to be a "god" ...! christ dude - i'm about not discouraging people from trying something new. period.

before this gets way overheated - you are correct that my nomenclature is lacking.

i'd still like to see a 1JZ/1GG head gasket against a 1GZ as well.

all i'm saying is if you haven't tried it, don't say it can't be done and please don't post such. the only reason i see it not working if if the bore spacings are different.

if someone can only get a 1GZ block, it could be the closest option. if someone if proficient in TIG, the oil/water galleries are easily welded and re-drilled to suit the block.

i've seen 2x 4cyl heads on a V8 - one head was reversed and re-drilled to suit the block. a new set of inlet valves were sourced to provide exhaust and inlets of equal size, and the one side of the motor had new cams made to suit. plenty of other small and crucial things were changed, but if people are willing to go to this extent, then i see no reason why others wouldn't for a 1GZ.

i'm not discrediting or questioning anyone's knowledge or experience here - have no intention of doing so - and apologise profusely if i have.

 

[cjsupra90]

Pro, even if a 1jz or 1g head would bolt on, by the design of the head and the cam orientation, you would have to have a mirror casting which does not exist. Those heads can not have the cams turned around to give you the oposite side head like the early 1uz (pre VVTi) heads.
In order for it to work, you either have to have a reversable design or a mirror casting neither of which are there so it wont work and its pointless to discuss any further.

 

[cjsupra90]

i've seen 2x 4cyl heads on a V8 - one head was reversed and re-drilled to suit the block. a new set of inlet valves were sourced to provide exhaust and inlets of equal size, and the one side of the motor had new cams made to suit. plenty of other small and crucial things were changed, but if people are willing to go to this extent, then i see no reason why others wouldn't for a 1GZ.

What V8 was this and what 4cyl. head was it???

Were is the proof that this was done and were is the proof that it was advantagous?

Yes, anything can be done if you have enough money, but is it really worth it????

I dont know about you, but I know that Im not going to spend thousands of dollars to pic up a few HP....

 

[Jake Breyck]

all i'm saying is if you haven't tried it, don't say it can't be done and please don't post such. the only reason i see it not working if if the bore spacings are different.

You are still missing the fact that the original question was not, "can it be done in aftermarket", the question was "does it come with 2jz heads stock"

My reply was NO. and that should be clear to anyone who A.can read properly and B. understands Toyota's naming system. It seems your still lacking in A.

I didn't once discuss what could be achieved with ingenuity, just looking at my projects or maybe asking some of my close friends that hear my ideas. I'm way off in the creative realm and far from the cookie cutter builds, so i have crazy respect for the creative and skilled.

i've seen 2x 4cyl heads on a V8 - one head was reversed and re-drilled to suit the block. a new set of inlet valves were sourced to provide exhaust and inlets of equal size, and the one side of the motor had new cams made to suit. plenty of other small and crucial things were changed, but if people are willing to go to this extent, then i see no reason why others wouldn't for a 1GZ.

where these V8s based off motor cycle heads? there are plenty of custom 2Lish V8s based on 1000 CC bike engine heads but the blocks are custom cut to match the heads, they are not a block pulled from any car.

 

[cjsupra90]

where these V8s based off motor cycle heads? there are plenty of custom 2Lish V8s based on 1000 CC bike engine heads but the blocks are custom cut to match the heads, they are not a block pulled from any car.

Speaking of those Jake, I love the one that the guy does using 1300cc Busa engines... to make a 2.6L V8 (350 to 375hp tiny V8 that spins 13000rpm's) I want one... Hmmmm, Jake, roadster engine???????

Doing it with a bike engine is a lot simpler to cause of the way the cams are driven from the crank on a lot of them.

 

[Zuffen]

There are plenty of Vauxhaul heads on Rover V8s.

This gives the rover OHC and better breathing.

The two have no relationship to each other so fitting different brand heads onto a standard block isn't unheard of.

 

[Jake Breyck]

ya i guess there is volvo heads on ford 2.3 block as well.

 

[cjsupra90]

ya i guess there is volvo heads on ford 2.3 block as well.

Yeah, but thats because volvo bought the block casting molds from ford...

 

[cjsupra90]

There are plenty of Vauxhaul heads on Rover V8s.

This gives the rover OHC and better breathing.

The two have no relationship to each other so fitting different brand heads onto a standard block isn't unheard of.

Rod, I fully agree with you in that setup and yes i have seen that done before. But I dont see a 1JZ or 1G head offering a substantial flow increase over the stock 1GZ head to warrent all the work and cost.

In the Rover / Vauxhaul set up, you are killing more birds then just breathing with one stone so it could be very well worth the effort and cost. Were as with the swap in question, there is not going to be that much to be gained compaired to the work and cost envolved with such a swap / conversion....

 

[cjsupra90]

Cylinder bore size and compression effects are the one of the biggest problems with using a 1JZ or a 1G head.

The 1G has a 75MM bore chances are, using this head on the 81MM bore 1GZ will cause a drastic increase in compression not to mention, I hightly doubt that the bore spacing is even close.

The 1JZ has a 86MM bore and chance are, using this head on the 81MM 1GZ bore wil cause a drastic drop in compression which could be good for forced induction, but using this setup will also cause a substaintial lose of quench area which will increase the likely hood of detonation and will lower performance possibility. This again is barring whether or not the bore spacing is the same which again, I hightly doubt, especially cause toyota usually attempts to have pretty thick walls between cylinders on thier turbo engines and the JZ and its 86mm bore and intended as to have a turbo will most likely be longer...

One thing Im surprised that was not mentioned with the 1jz or 1g swap possibilities is a 7M head. Out of all the I6 Toyota engines, this would be the closest one with the 7M engine having an 83mm bore so the spacing might be a lot closer (or possibly the same)... These heads are readily avalible and cheap (at least here in the states) but I still dont see this being a swap worth the effort or cost.