BMW V12 Project

[cribbj]

I'm just a big fan of COP's, but with the bimmer's SOHC heads, they're nearly impossible to fit. We'll probably do some CNP's, and if I can afford it, it won't have a waste spark system, but true sequential, with 12 ignition outputs & coils.

I'm a EE, and eliminating those lossy distributors and HV leads makes a lot of sense, although COP's bring their own particular problems to the table too!

I believe someone here is running CBR COP's on the early 1UZ; perhaps The Flea?

 

[LondonBenji]

I'm just a big fan of COP's, but with the bimmer's SOHC heads, they're nearly impossible to fit. We'll probably do some CNP's, and if I can afford it, it won't have a waste spark system, but true sequential, with 12 ignition outputs & coils.

I'm a EE, and eliminating those lossy distributors and HV leads makes a lot of sense, although COP's bring their own particular problems to the table too!

I believe someone here is running CBR COP's on the early 1UZ; perhaps The Flea?

Couple-o-questions -

1: CNP's?
2: Apart from potentially needing a new ECU and possible fitment problems, what are the problems that COP's bring to the table? (As for size, didn't the VVT 1UZ run COP? If so couldn't you just use those?)

Ta,

Benji

 

[cribbj]

1. CNP = Coil Near Plug (they have very short secondary leads)

2. Since COP's by their nature have to be fairly compact, the amount of energy they can deliver is limited. They're fine for an NA motor, or low boost motor with true sequential ignition, but a high boost, waste spark application would be tough. Also, since many applications are for DOHC motors, the COP is sitting down in the valley between the cams and doesn't get much ventilation, and this probably contributes to a shorter lifetime.

With this SOHC bimmer motor, the plugs are mounted on the outboard side of the heads, just above the exhaust ports. This is a really inconvenient place for them, versus a DOHC head, where the plug wells are between the cams, and pretty easy to get to. COP's with the bimmer will probably either foul the exhaust headers, and/or they'll be exposed to so much heat there, they'll fail prematurely, so I'll probably have to litter up the cam covers and mount them there.

 

[LondonBenji]

Ah ha, all becomes clear now. Thank you very much!

I've also done a shed load of reading into the M70/71 block, purely based on the desire to have one after hearing one video clip and that was Jay's Ultima... I watched that clip and I was hooked. Best of luck with your project!

 

[LondonBenji]

Right, that would be Ed Rae****. Another BMW engine guru - he and the builder I'm using, Henry Law***** collaborate occasionally on go-fast stuff for the M70.

First time I spoke with Ed he said "I specialise in the weird."

The M50 heads apparently bolt on to the M70 block, but that's only the tip of the iceberg, so I've heard.

Here's a couple shots of an M70 wearing M50 heads, and no, this has not been photoshopped; I personally spoke with the photographer.

To keep this thread on topic, I suggest if we want to talk more about M70 stuff, we can move over to my GT40 thread, or start a new thread about M70's.

Ah-ha: http://www.boggbros.co.uk/gallery2.html

Yeah it sounds like the oil and water galleries don't line up perfectly, and because the heads aren't mirrored you either end up with the cam gear the wrong side of the engine by turning the head around or you end up using exhaust ports as inlets and inlets as exhaust ports but just moving the same head across to the other side, as per the pictures you have and on the website......

 

[cribbj]

I've also done a shed load of reading into the M70/71 block, purely based on the desire to have one after hearing one video clip and that was Jay's Ultima... I watched that clip and I was hooked.

I know the feeling. I saw the film Grand Prix in 1966 or '67 I think, when I was 16/17 years old and racing karts. In the opening credits an F1 V12 Ferrari motor cranks up, and there's a gorgeous shot of the 12 slide throttles opening and shutting as the driver is goosing it and warming it up. I remember thinking that V12 was the most beautiful sound I'd ever heard - even better than the highly tuned 2 strokes I was racing. I've been hooked on V12's ever since.

 

[LondonBenji]

I just couldn't do it, I *had* to watch the video's again, its these two specifically that really make me lust for the V12:

http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0164.avi
http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0417.avi

It sounds so damn nice!

Did they pull any tricks to make the BMW V12 sound so nice though or will it just sound like that with open exhausts?

The exhausts on there also look strange, whats different/strange about them?

People also talk about ITB's sounding nice? How do they affect the sound and how would it sound on the BMW V12?

 

[cribbj]

Here's a couple more of an M70 in a Ferrari 250 GTO replica. This project was done by a young lady up in Chicago, and she does most of her own work:

http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running1.avi
http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running2.avi

The motor is running pig rich, but it still sounds sweet.

 

[Zuffen]

John,

Why do people choose not to use Ferrari V12s?

They are not all that expensive (except to rebuild)and are easy to wire and give all the right sounds and grunt.

412's a a dime a dozen.

 

[cribbj]

Rod, we just don't see that many V12 Ferrari motors coming available over here, and when they do, the price is horrendous for a motor in unknown condition because they're so rare. The V8's are more plentiful, but then they just don't have the sex appeal of the V12.

The prices for these bimmer motors are ridiculously cheap because they're plentiful and they have such terrible reputations for reliability. There were two on eBay last week that probably didn't sell for $1000.

The BMW motors are growing in popularity with the kitcar crowd, so more engine/tranny adaptors are becoming available, as are induction systems, cams, etc.

They're still gawdawful expensive to rebuild, but that's just part of owning/building a V12 I suppose.

If you have a line on cheap 412's, I'd certainly like to know about it, because the initial purchase price is the only thing stopping people from using the real thing.

 

[Zuffen]

Bill Young at GT Auto spares in Scotsdale Phoenix should be able to supply what you need.

'80's Ferrari V12's are cheap right now as no one wants them.

 

[LondonBenji]

Here's a couple more of an M70 in a Ferrari 250 GTO replica. This project was done by a young lady up in Chicago, and she does most of her own work:

http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running1.avi
http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running2.avi

The motor is running pig rich, but it still sounds sweet.

I'm.

In.

Love.

Hot car, hot girl, computer geek

Anyways, I thought I had seen that car before:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531845&page=3

Looks like there is a thrid video on her site as well:

http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running3.avi :684:


So, how to make this engine sound as exotic as possible........?

 

[cribbj]

Chelle is an interesting lady; there certainly aren't many girls that can spin wrenches as well as any guy, then clean up and look like they just stepped off a fashion show catwalk in Paris. She's definitely one sharp gal.

I first bumped into her a couple years ago on HybridZ when I was thinking of doing a 250 GTO replica based on the 280Z body/chassis, and she was about midway through her project. We've been swapping ideas ever since, and I think she's probably decided to buy that ITB intake for her motor that I showed a few messages before this one.

Here's another thread which gives more details of her M70 buildup, and if you do a search on HybridZ for her other posts, you'll get more photos, including one or two of her:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=111184

 

[striker]

How to make this sound exotic?

Well try this.

make 4 manifolds doing 3-1 headers. hook up 4 seperate silencers and 4 seperate tailpipes, NO balance pipes anywhere. get the engine to do 7500rpm (shouldn't be that hard on an M70)
should look somthing like this


mind you there's a billet cranck in this paticular engine and the rest is also not so stock.

and off you go

http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0417.avi

sounds OK to me

otherwise build a car with twin kawasaki or hayabusa engines like zcars does sounds like a flatplane v8 on 13.000rpm..... hmmmm nice

grtz Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

How to make this sound exotic?

Well try this.

make 4 manifolds doing 3-1 headers. hook up 4 seperate silencers and 4 seperate tailpipes, NO balance pipes anywhere. get the engine to do 7500rpm (shouldn't be that hard on an M70)
should look somthing like this


mind you there's a billet cranck in this paticular engine and the rest is also not so stock.

and off you go

http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0417.avi

sounds OK to me

otherwise build a car with twin kawasaki or hayabusa engines like zcars does sounds like a flatplane v8 on 13.000rpm..... hmmmm nice

grtz Thomas

I just couldn't do it, I *had* to watch the video's again, its these two specifically that really make me lust for the V12:

http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0164.avi
http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0417.avi

It sounds so damn nice!

Did they pull any tricks to make the BMW V12 sound so nice though or will it just sound like that with open exhausts?

The exhausts on there also look strange, whats different/strange about them?

People also talk about ITB's sounding nice? How do they affect the sound and how would it sound on the BMW V12?

Well ahead of you mate :wink1:

:684:

 

[LondonBenji]

The billet crank won't actually affect the sound unless they changed the firing order or something would it?

 

[striker]

Oh sorry for that, indeed well before me!

anyway euuhm, no the different crank wouldn't be the reason for the change in sound, and the crank alone wouldn't be nearly enough to change the firing order. however it might be lighter and able to rev very high which would increase the exoticness in sound, if that's 2 term at all.

grtz Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

Yes true but its a good starting point!

I don't know why but I'd get kicks out of making an engine spin backwards

Apart from the crank and spark plugs/injector firing order, what else would need to be changed to do such a thing and would it have detrimental affect on the engine?

I see your point about revving, apparently changing the flywheel on the M70 seems to be a common theme when using it in another lighter car.....

 

[WDoherty]

Ferrari engines can be had at a fair price, http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...RK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=290097572920&rd=1,1
its even rebuilt. I didn't know testarossa's had flat 12's and i have never heard one so don't know how it sounds, but 390hp to start with for this year model and i think it later reached 440hp with raised compression; that's not a bad starting point. Although i wonder how fitment into kit cars, or gt40 reps would work with this engine layout.

 

[cribbj]

I don't know if clean bright cast aluminum is a turn-on for everyone else, but I sure like it.

Here's some pics of my G50/52 transaxle getting worked over at California Motor Sports. It's being overhauled, with new bearings and synchros, new discs in the LSD, beefed up a bit with a billet side cover and shift forks, shortened to make some more room for that V12, and converted to a side shifter.

Sorry, I had to turn some of these on their sides to get a "landscape" aspect ratio for them to display here.