Are the V12 engines really a good engine in general? I always thought the more moving parts that you have operating in an engine the more trouble you are likely to encounter in general over time....Just look at the old Jags, they lived in the shops for repairs with those V12 engines...I think the Dodge V10's have it down pretty good for reliability but I would be weary with any V12 motor...What do you guys think? Will the V12's also really out perform the same liter sized V10, V8, and V6 motors? I am curious to this....
BMW V12 Project
- Thread starter cribbj
- Start date
The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
V12's have an inherent smoothness and lack of vibration that no other engine design can claim, save a true, opposed cylinder boxer motor with crank throws that are 180 degrees from each other.
Even neglecting the inherent balance advantages, a 5.0l V12 motor is going to accomplish smoother output to the crankshaft than a 5.0l V8 because it's outputting 12 torque pulses to the crank per engine cycle instead of 8. This is the reason people prefer to drive a 6 or an 8 cylinder engine instead of a 4 cylinder engine.
Concerning power output - years ago race engine designers felt that a 3 litre V12 could put out more power, and rev faster and higher than a 3 litre V8, and a 3.0 litre V16 would outperform either of those. Indeed, a 1.5l BRM V16 made 450 HP with a redline of 11,000.....and this was in 1951.
But for modern day, slow speed engines, the V12 doesn't have many advantages over the V8, other than its smoothness. It does have many disadvantages, not the least of which are that it's much more expensive to build initially, and fix subsequently, than a V8.
But, this thread really isn't about whether a V12 is "better" than a SBC V8, or whether an Ultima is "better" than a GT40. This thread is about my personal adventure of building a very unique car from my teens 40 years ago, powered by a type of engine that I've always fantasized about.
Anaema, in 40 years when you're as old as I am now, perhaps you'll understand this better.
If I just wanted cheap power, I'd probably drive a 'Vette, and if I wanted a really fast, cheap car it'd probably be the Ultima GTR with a SBC in it. But there's so much more to this obsession of ours than just raw power or speed.
So I'm not going to try to justify this project to anyone, or defend it on its technical merits because it'll come up short in many categories. Any of us who are hotrodders know that we don't do these projects just for raw power or speed, but because they're unique.
Even neglecting the inherent balance advantages, a 5.0l V12 motor is going to accomplish smoother output to the crankshaft than a 5.0l V8 because it's outputting 12 torque pulses to the crank per engine cycle instead of 8. This is the reason people prefer to drive a 6 or an 8 cylinder engine instead of a 4 cylinder engine.
Concerning power output - years ago race engine designers felt that a 3 litre V12 could put out more power, and rev faster and higher than a 3 litre V8, and a 3.0 litre V16 would outperform either of those. Indeed, a 1.5l BRM V16 made 450 HP with a redline of 11,000.....and this was in 1951.
But for modern day, slow speed engines, the V12 doesn't have many advantages over the V8, other than its smoothness. It does have many disadvantages, not the least of which are that it's much more expensive to build initially, and fix subsequently, than a V8.
But, this thread really isn't about whether a V12 is "better" than a SBC V8, or whether an Ultima is "better" than a GT40. This thread is about my personal adventure of building a very unique car from my teens 40 years ago, powered by a type of engine that I've always fantasized about.
Anaema, in 40 years when you're as old as I am now, perhaps you'll understand this better.
If I just wanted cheap power, I'd probably drive a 'Vette, and if I wanted a really fast, cheap car it'd probably be the Ultima GTR with a SBC in it. But there's so much more to this obsession of ours than just raw power or speed.
So I'm not going to try to justify this project to anyone, or defend it on its technical merits because it'll come up short in many categories. Any of us who are hotrodders know that we don't do these projects just for raw power or speed, but because they're unique.
plus there are advantages to a v-12 i don't think we have talked about. More cylinders per displacement means a shorter stroke, less stress to rev higher. Another biggy, is the larger the piston gets the more variances in heat on the surface of the piston and etc. that allows you to go higher compression/boost on a smaller cylinder without detonation, BMW usually goes by a .5L per cylinder rule on high performance engines and you will usually find this on race engines as well, with more cylinders you can fit more valves, so more flow once again. Basically you could have a v-8 and a v-12 of the same displacement, but the v-12 is likely to make more power, behave better, rev higher, and as we all know, sound symphonic while doing so.
Lambo
Moderator
V12 V V8
Hi John, I would have to agree with you, i have been a passenger in three Countach replicars, the first had a stock Jag v12 and the second had a 1uz, and the third a seriously worked sbc at 500hp, the Jag motor definately had smoother power delivery, more torque,and really sounded the part,the sbc was just raw hp, very fast, and very noisy inside the cabin.
As i have not been able to find a Toyota v12 it will have to be the 1uz in my Countach for now, i am at the point of finallizing the firewall position, and so would like to leave my options open for the future, i noticed the dimentions in the picture you posted between the Ford and BMW, the length of the M70 looks like it is 29.25 is that correct, would you happen to know the length of the Toyota V12 from front most point to the bellhousing, i have searched everywhere but can't find the info, it would be good to leave enough space to perhaps fit a Toyota/ BMW v12 later
Best Regards
Lambo ( graeme)
Hi John, I would have to agree with you, i have been a passenger in three Countach replicars, the first had a stock Jag v12 and the second had a 1uz, and the third a seriously worked sbc at 500hp, the Jag motor definately had smoother power delivery, more torque,and really sounded the part,the sbc was just raw hp, very fast, and very noisy inside the cabin.
As i have not been able to find a Toyota v12 it will have to be the 1uz in my Countach for now, i am at the point of finallizing the firewall position, and so would like to leave my options open for the future, i noticed the dimentions in the picture you posted between the Ford and BMW, the length of the M70 looks like it is 29.25 is that correct, would you happen to know the length of the Toyota V12 from front most point to the bellhousing, i have searched everywhere but can't find the info, it would be good to leave enough space to perhaps fit a Toyota/ BMW v12 later
Best Regards
Lambo ( graeme)
Guys, the reason I asked about the V12 engines of today is that I owned an 1991 850 BMW (V12) for about a year, many years back and also had trouble with that motor...However, it did run really smoothe when it worked..Again, I did have problems with that V12 motor too just like I saw in the Jags at the time...Those engines would not handle a 1/4 of the pounding that I give my 1uz-fe stock engine today.. I just wanted to see if these v12 engines were getting any better in recent years and why you guys have an interest in them...
With my BMW 850 I had a head gasket that failed and alot of other stuff from time to time go wrong, over heating problem, starting problems, etc.....I had to unload it quickly with 90,000 miles on it before it took me down with it....It was a nice car at the time and I would have loved to keep driving it around, the ladies sure loved it...but it was trouble..Oh and that V12 BMW was also a true slug out of the blocks...Maybe worse then the stock early model SC400's...However, once that car got going it did have a little getty up....All apologies for going off topic...Just curious as too the hype and appeal with todays V12's....Question answered thank you...
With my BMW 850 I had a head gasket that failed and alot of other stuff from time to time go wrong, over heating problem, starting problems, etc.....I had to unload it quickly with 90,000 miles on it before it took me down with it....It was a nice car at the time and I would have loved to keep driving it around, the ladies sure loved it...but it was trouble..Oh and that V12 BMW was also a true slug out of the blocks...Maybe worse then the stock early model SC400's...However, once that car got going it did have a little getty up....All apologies for going off topic...Just curious as too the hype and appeal with todays V12's....Question answered thank you...
Lambo
Moderator
Hi Jibbby, The Jags seem to suffer also from overheating from what i have heard, the small water pipes tend to block at the bends and then no water gets through, also very common for the pipes taking fuel to the rear of the injectors to fail, result instant fire, not sure if the BMW has the same problem, i guess that both engines are packed tight into the engine bay and so not alot of cool air gets to them, so hoses fail often?, the bmw's seem to still get good money in nz http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=69429342&key=59672
Regards
Lambo
Regards
Lambo
them old v12's were decent engines, the ancillaries and supporting equipment on the other hand, was pure and utter crap. Engine fire, anyone??? The most complaints i've heard were all related to crap electronics. Other than that, i don't know much about them.
Lambo, the 1gzfe toyota v12 is 750mm from face of the bell to the front of the accessory belt. 650mm side to side (head to head), and 750 from sump to top of intake. Being a relatively new engine (1998 to current), all the electronics and accessories are reliable (only what i've found through research, not firsthand experience). Not a great deal is known about them.... yet.
Lambo, the 1gzfe toyota v12 is 750mm from face of the bell to the front of the accessory belt. 650mm side to side (head to head), and 750 from sump to top of intake. Being a relatively new engine (1998 to current), all the electronics and accessories are reliable (only what i've found through research, not firsthand experience). Not a great deal is known about them.... yet.
I seen my share of burnt Jag V12's.
They burn because people don't service them properly.
At 10 years of age the engines need the small hoses between the fuel rail and the injectors replaced as the hoses go hard due to the heat. Owners don't do this service as it costs about $1,500.00.
The hose finally leaks and sprays fuel on the distributor which naturally enough has a few sparks flying around inside it.
Attached photos of a client's car that caught fire 2 weels ago. This will cost up to $10,000 to repair.
They burn because people don't service them properly.
At 10 years of age the engines need the small hoses between the fuel rail and the injectors replaced as the hoses go hard due to the heat. Owners don't do this service as it costs about $1,500.00.
The hose finally leaks and sprays fuel on the distributor which naturally enough has a few sparks flying around inside it.
Attached photos of a client's car that caught fire 2 weels ago. This will cost up to $10,000 to repair.
Yes,
Some of those old Jags are in demand and bring good money.
Personally I would own a Jag but hey, lots of people wouldn't want to drive what I drive.
The Jag V12 was a very advanced engine in its day. It's easy to forget the engine has been around for the best part of 40 years.
Interesting snipet. The guy who designed the "Mays head" for the HE (high efficiency) version was the first person to use movable aerodynamic devices on a car in the late 50's. They were so successful he was banned from using them.
The massive Le Mans crash with Mercedes saw movable spoilers banned for many years.
Some of those old Jags are in demand and bring good money.
Personally I would own a Jag but hey, lots of people wouldn't want to drive what I drive.
The Jag V12 was a very advanced engine in its day. It's easy to forget the engine has been around for the best part of 40 years.
Interesting snipet. The guy who designed the "Mays head" for the HE (high efficiency) version was the first person to use movable aerodynamic devices on a car in the late 50's. They were so successful he was banned from using them.
The massive Le Mans crash with Mercedes saw movable spoilers banned for many years.
Lambo
Moderator
Thanks r-jay thats the info i needed, i will check it out tonight to see if it would fit, do you have a 1gz, if so i would also like to know how much clearance it would have from the bottom of the crank pulley aircon pump etc to the bottom of the sump, i currently have my front transfer case in that spot to send drive to the front diff, any info apprieciated.
Best Regards
Lambo
Best Regards
Lambo
R-Jay, when you get your motor in, let's compare notes on how Toyota did things vs BMW?
For example, I'm curious how Toyota did their cam sync signals (G1 & G2) with the V12. It's probably similar to the way they did it on the 1UZ, but I'd like to know.
I'm currently trying to sort out how I'm going to do this with the BMW motor, since I'm pulling the distributors off completely and going with a direct fire ignition. Unfortunately, the early BMW motors don't have the nodes on their cams for the sync signal.
Welding a node on the cam might be an option, or else implanting a magnet in the cam gear might work.
I'm even considering grinding a tooth off the cam gear and using the "missing tooth" signal for my #1 TDC sync. The BMW motor has chain driven cams and each cam sprocket has at least 120-150 degrees of wrap, so this might not be as farfetched as it sounds. The trick would be to find a place to mount the sensor where it wouldn't foul something.
Yeah I know, I don't need a cam sync signal for a waste spark ignition, but I want to do this right, so it's not going to have a waste spark system.
For example, I'm curious how Toyota did their cam sync signals (G1 & G2) with the V12. It's probably similar to the way they did it on the 1UZ, but I'd like to know.
I'm currently trying to sort out how I'm going to do this with the BMW motor, since I'm pulling the distributors off completely and going with a direct fire ignition. Unfortunately, the early BMW motors don't have the nodes on their cams for the sync signal.
Welding a node on the cam might be an option, or else implanting a magnet in the cam gear might work.
I'm even considering grinding a tooth off the cam gear and using the "missing tooth" signal for my #1 TDC sync. The BMW motor has chain driven cams and each cam sprocket has at least 120-150 degrees of wrap, so this might not be as farfetched as it sounds. The trick would be to find a place to mount the sensor where it wouldn't foul something.
Yeah I know, I don't need a cam sync signal for a waste spark ignition, but I want to do this right, so it's not going to have a waste spark system.
The early 5.0l M70 BMW motor made 295 hp @ 5200 RPM and 332 lb-ft torque @ 4100. This was back in '89 when the motor first came out.
If Toyota's V12 is also 5.0l, and they're only rating it at 267 HP, they're probably being very conservative for a motor that has a 20+ year advantage of newer technology over the BMW.
Or BMW could have used the DIN standard for HP back in '89, and Toyota is using SAE now.... IIRC, DIN was the "gross" horsepower available at the flywheel, without any parasitic losses like fan drives, and I believe SAE's figure is "net" HP available after parasitic losses.
If Toyota's V12 is also 5.0l, and they're only rating it at 267 HP, they're probably being very conservative for a motor that has a 20+ year advantage of newer technology over the BMW.
Or BMW could have used the DIN standard for HP back in '89, and Toyota is using SAE now.... IIRC, DIN was the "gross" horsepower available at the flywheel, without any parasitic losses like fan drives, and I believe SAE's figure is "net" HP available after parasitic losses.
Lambo
Moderator
I did some digging the BMW is an interesting engine and would appear to produce nearly 300bhp
Engine Displacement Power Torque Redline Year
M70B50 4.9 L (4988 cc/304 in³) 220 kW (295 hp) @ 5200 450 N·m (331 ft·lbf) @ 4100 6000 1988
220 kW (295 hp) @ 5200 450 N·m (331 ft·lbf) @ 4100 6000 1988
Euro Specifications:
Displacement: 4988 cm^3
12 cylinder V-arrangement 60 degree
24 valve
Compression: 8.8:1
Stroke/Bore: 75 mm/84 mm
Firing Order: 1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10
Max power: 300 bhp / 220 kW @ 5300 rpm
Max torque: 450 Nm @ 4000 rpm
Max rpm: 6000-6400 rpm *Gearing
Applications:
1986-1995 E32 7-Series
1989-1997 E31 8-Series
and see http://www.lamboreplica.co.uk/gallery/album45?page=1
for a few pixs and here for chip upgrades,http://www.7-forum.com/modelle/e32/chiptuning/chiptuning.php
But i still want a 1gz hehe
Regards
Lambo
Engine Displacement Power Torque Redline Year
M70B50 4.9 L (4988 cc/304 in³) 220 kW (295 hp) @ 5200 450 N·m (331 ft·lbf) @ 4100 6000 1988
220 kW (295 hp) @ 5200 450 N·m (331 ft·lbf) @ 4100 6000 1988
Euro Specifications:
Displacement: 4988 cm^3
12 cylinder V-arrangement 60 degree
24 valve
Compression: 8.8:1
Stroke/Bore: 75 mm/84 mm
Firing Order: 1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10
Max power: 300 bhp / 220 kW @ 5300 rpm
Max torque: 450 Nm @ 4000 rpm
Max rpm: 6000-6400 rpm *Gearing
Applications:
1986-1995 E32 7-Series
1989-1997 E31 8-Series
and see http://www.lamboreplica.co.uk/gallery/album45?page=1
for a few pixs and here for chip upgrades,http://www.7-forum.com/modelle/e32/chiptuning/chiptuning.php
But i still want a 1gz hehe
Regards
Lambo
