BMW V12 Project

[cribbj]

I hear you GearHead; CMS (Bobby Hart & now Roger Brown is with him) are a quality shop and it really shows in these pics doesn't it? Some shops build beautiful stuff only for themselves for advertising, and the stuff they turn out for paying customers looks like cr*p (we've got quite a few of those in TX), but these guys are the real deal.

The SSC Advanced Aero, which is now officially the fastest production car in the world, beating both the Koenigsegg and the Veyron, runs one of their transaxles.

So, if an 1100+ HP twin turbo V8 with over 1000 lb-ft of torque can't destroy one of their boxes, I feel pretty good about using it with my V12.

Now to find a clutch & flywheel.....

 

[striker]

Cribjj, Jay Esterer is running the Beamer V12 in an ultima on a Boxter transaxle I know it's not the same as the G50 but maybe worth a shot.

here's his website. http://www.ultimav12.ca/

Grtz Thomas

 

[RUFAZZ]

The CDI unit is an ignition expander incorporated with CDI as we are running 8 coils. I Don't know anyone running an expander for 12 cyls.
You would require 2 x expander modules
Wiring diagram is here
http://www.motec.com.au/drawings/a04.pdf

The Motec systems are not the cheapest and should not be compared to budget ECU's, the Motec ECU and dash are original equipment on Porsche GT3 Carrera Cup cars.

Your V12 GT40 must rank as one of the best road going 'race cars' and it would be a shame if the engine management could not deliver smoothness and tractability, as well as performance.

BTW not a Motec salesman, actually an Autronic distributor, but in your case I reccomend Motec.

I have a question, what makes you prefer the MoTec over the Autronic? I am using the same engine in my build and doing some of the same things with my motor.


TIA
Adrian

 

[cribbj]

Hey there Adrian, welcome!

(Adrian's a regular over at the kitcar forum, and is building a V12 BMW powered "something". A Lambo replica probably?)

Hope you enjoy Lextreme; these little aluminum DOHC V8's are really sweet motors. I wish our M70's had this technology......

 

[Cobolt]

I hear you GearHead; CMS (Bobby Hart & now Roger Brown is with him) are a quality shop and it really shows in these pics doesn't it? Some shops build beautiful stuff only for themselves for advertising, and the stuff they turn out for paying customers looks like cr*p (we've got quite a few of those in TX), but these guys are the real deal.

The SSC Advanced Aero, which is now officially the fastest production car in the world, beating both the Koenigsegg and the Veyron, runs one of their transaxles.

So, if an 1100+ HP twin turbo V8 with over 1000 lb-ft of torque can't destroy one of their boxes, I feel pretty good about using it with my V12.

Now to find a clutch & flywheel.....

Yep, we built one of those G50/52:s using the same parts supplyer, fitted it to a 1000hp+ porsche 911 and it has been doing 5500-6500rpm banzai launches on the street and dragstrip with all from 500hp-960hp a total of approx 40 times now and the gearbox just keeps on going, before we found this supplyer, the gearbox were just about always dismantled for replacement of worn or damaged parts, dragracing isn´t nice at all to an engine bolted transaxle, now it is a once per season owerhaul.

Indeed the real deal.

 

[cribbj]

Cobolt, thanks for the confirmation. Now people will know I'm not just a "poster child" for CMS ;-)

 

[rms]

I have a question, what makes you prefer the MoTec over the Autronic? I am using the same engine in my build and doing some of the same things with my motor.


TIA
Adrian

Hi Adrian,
There is not much difference so far as the engine is concerned between the SM4 Autronic and the M800 Motec. It really boils down to the tuner knowing where to set parameters such as injection timing relative to load and rpm, ignition advance at load/cruise, A/F at cruise etc.

The real difference is the logging and interpretation software, documentation, choice of sensors and a dedicated 'help desk'. There are other features with the Motec such as launch control, traction control, fly by wire throttle, integration with various logging dash's, data input for suspension travel, shock frequency.

It will depend on how much you wish to spend against how many features you will use.

The Autronic is every bit the equal in running the engine and much cheaper.
They are the only 2 ECU's I will tune and be satisfied with.
If I can't satisfy myself, how can I satisfy the customer ?

 

[GT40_GearHead]

its that time again ...

whats new mate ?

 

[cribbj]

Not much happening with the V12, other than I'm about to give the builder the green light to get started. I think we're nearly over the hump now with the V8 project - just one more dyno to get through, and it'll be going into the car, so hopefully I can start focusing on this project a bit more.

 

[GT40_GearHead]

did put up a log for the V8 engine ?

you made me curious

 

[cribbj]

Yes, here's the thread for the V8 buildup: http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7904

 

[GT40_GearHead]

time for an update mate !

how's it going ?

 

[cribbj]

Man Gearhead you're a tough customer! Looks like I'm going to have to spend money a lot faster to keep you happy ;-)

Builder says the motor is down to the long block, and he/we are trying to decide how to do the dry sump. Buy an existing dry sump oil pan and modify it or modify the existing. I have a hunch he'll modify the existing, since I just sent him a ton of photos how others have already done it.

Should have some photos soon.

Also trying to decide whether to run dual alternators or stick with one big one. So far the big single seems to be the way to go. (We'll be running electric water pumps and electric fans so electrical consumption is a concern.)

 

[Cobolt]

This is a really good way of building a dry sump:

http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33359&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=42
http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33359&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=63

All texts are in swedish but the pics tells more than a 1000 words.
There will probably be a scraper inside aswell.

The thread is about the buildup of a tube-frame Corvette racecar wich is set to compete in a class called "nordic supercar" wich is about the toughest you can race in my country. 600-1000hp cars w different minimum weights due to what kind of power figures you can expect etc,

 

[cribbj]

Thanks Cobolt, but it's a website that requires registration before we can view the threads, and my Swedish is worse than my Arabic :boggled:

I'll contact you by PM.

 

[GT40_GearHead]

you can bet your a$$ that i'm a though customer to please !

you really pushed my buttons with this one !


cheers mate, I'm waiting on those pics

 

[cribbj]

Well, I thought I'd get the jump on my buddy GT40_Gearhead and post before he asked for an update ;-)

Actually, the square root of SFA has happened on the motor over the holidays. We had to discard the idea of an integral dry sump pan and pump, because although it's very compact and looks gorgeous, only a professional race team could afford it

Here's the kind of work that Dailey Engineering: www.daileyengineering.com does. This is a Dodge Hemi dry sump pan with integral pump:


They make these for Chevies, Fords and Mopar, and if you have a new application, it'll run around $10K for the prototype, and about half that for production units <sigh>. Anybody up for a GP on V12 dry sump systems?

Sure looks nicer than the typical spaghetti of braided hose you usually see around a dry sump setup doesn't it? Here's Jay Esterer's dry sump setup, (same motor as mine, but in an Ultima):





So we're back to square one on doing a fairly conventional dry sump setup and still trying to find space for everything.

In other areas, I'm exploring the possibility of running a 24v electrical system because of the heavy electrical loads the car will have. It's no problem to find pumps, fans and the air compressor for 24v, but it's turning into a very interesting exercise to see how the ECU, injectors and ignition will cope with twice the voltage.

Not to mention the starter, which if left unmodified, will spin the engine at twice the normal crank speed and develop exponentially more torque at the higher voltage and speed, which is liable to rip the teeth right off the ring gear or the starter pinion

It's intriguing if only from the perspective of the ignition - who wouldn't want to be able to charge their ignition coils fully in only half the normal dwell time?

 

[rms]

John,
We considered the Dailey Eng. integrated sump/oil pump, he was supplying TRD for the Lexus/Grand Am engines.
As the sump on the Reynard is the lower engine mount we could not use the Dailey setup, went with one of his pumps though and we have a bunch of snakes with all the hoses.

The Dailey pump is an absolute jewel, 4 - roots type scavenge, gear pressure and centrifugal oil/air seperator. Not the cheapest but by far the best.
Bill is also one of the nicest guys to deal with, nothing is too much trouble.

 

[cribbj]

Erol, I'd always heard he built good stuff, and was hoping I could incorporate at least part of his system. Maybe I can still go for his pump, if not the whole integrated setup.

Have been doing some studying of ignition coil charging and found some very interesting data on the Mototron website. Here is a table and graph of their ignition coil and the energy it produces under different dwell conditions and different system voltages.

For example, if you want/need to pull 85 mJ of energy out of this coil, you need a dwell time of 2.79 msec at 12v. However, if you boost your system voltage to 16v, the dwell time drops to only 1.68 msec.

Erol, how about something like this for your 12,000 RPM screamer (at 5 msec per revolution you don't have much dwell time!)

(Mototron aren't the only source for this smart coil; they're available from a number of folks. Little puppy has a built in 20 amp IGBT too.)

The coil pic is courtesy of Pantera EFI

 

[widemr2t]

Well I just moved here and am new to the board but I must say you have some crazy builds going on. I hope you plan on taking these out to meets around houston. This place seems to be overflowing with crazy cars. I was down at some shop the other day and saw three ford gt's in there getting work done. Then when I was out for a ride on my bike I ran up on a pantera on the highway which sounded amazing. He gunned it and took off fast as hell. I later got off the same exit as him and asked what engine he had in that car. Told me it was a twin turbo bmw v12 you texans are crazy :headbang: I hope I can hit the lotto so I can do some insane builds like the rest of you.