Project Thread Supercharged Supra

[cribbj]

Trev, I think that's a winner. Knew I'd seen one somewhere but couldn't remember where, or on what.

Wonder if it's sensitive enough to serve as the bypass valve, ie if it'll open as soon as manifold pressure goes to less than atmospheric? Guess I'll have to pick one up & try it; thanks for the idea. I'll need to think this through now, 'cause I'm sure it'll take a solenoid valve or two to get it right.....

Edit: just bought a dual port Turbonetics actuator, like the one in Trevor's pic, from Jegs for $106 t/b delivered via next day air. People on eBay were wanting $130-$140 for the same thing! Hopefully next day air means I'll at least have it by Monday as I'm leaving Tuesday for a month and it would be nice to know whether this is going to work or not.

Rod, yes it was the integral IACV that sold me on the GM style, too. I nearly plunked down the $350-$400 for the FAST 90mm, but decided to give this one a try first. For those who are curious, FAST (and others) make big aftermarket TB's which have the same form & fitup as the GM, and they still use the GM IACV and TPS.

 

[cribbj]

Sensors, etc: Here are some pics and P/N's for the different sensors, connectors and pigtails commonly used for these projects:

If anyone notices any mistakes, please let me know?

Had a hella time finding the P/N for the pigtail for the TPS and the AEM MAP, but I think it's correct.

 

[Lextreme II]

Great info John.... I am following your foot steps...

 

[cribbj]

Got the parts all assembled, and had a bit of machining done to the Richwood intake ell, so here are some new pics:

Here's the Richwood cast intake ell with the GM throttle body mounted. The old holes for the Lexus TB were kept, but plugged off with set screws. This may create an air leak as we no longer have a flat surface there, but hopefully not:



The fitting in the upper center of the back of the ell is the M/W injection nozzle, and it's from Snow Performance. I decided to be clever and purchased some generic fogging nozzles from McMaster Carr for $5 each, and when I compared them to Snow's at $20 each they looked similar, except the McMaster Carr items have a hex fitting on their heads which looked to be very handy for tightening it, and the Snow nozzles have 5/16" wrench flats machined into their body. On the left is the Snow nozzle, and on the right is the McMaster one. The discharge of these nozzles is at the top of these photos; the little bronze looking affairs are inlet screens. Believe it or not, some people get the orientation confused and mount these things backwards, thinking the bronze screen is the discharge:



Ditto here (BTW, not the same nozzle size):



And here's the 1/4" x -4AN elbow where the nozzle will be mounted. I decided I didn't want to use Snow's Alcon system, with its push on fittings and plastic tubing, and will have a dedicated SS braided hose with teflon liner made up, in order to avoid any potential problems with the methanol attacking a "standard" hose. The ell is simply drilled & tapped on the 1/4 NPT side for 1/8" NPT and voila, now we have a nozzle holder that can be screwed into the intake or manifold (we just have to make sure the nozzle is WELL Loctited in, as if it comes loose, that's one ruined supercharger, and possibly the motor too, if any ground up bits of SC rotors or the nozzle succeed in making it through to the intake). BTW, I'm not trying to be a China fittings poster child - this ell actually came from a Parker dealer:





And here are the two types of nozzles mounted in the elbow. Anyone see why the McMaster Carr nozzle isn't going to work?:





The hex fitting on the McMaster one is actually larger than the 1/4" NPT threads of the ell, so the nozzle will not pass through the mounting hole from the rear; dohhhhhh. So to use the McMaster nozzles, a 3/8" ell would be necessary, which is a good bit larger than this little 1/4" ell. Guess I'll be using those $20 Snow nozzles....

In other developments, the Turbonetics dual port actuator arrived, and I tested it with a hand vacuum pump. The Turbonetics engineer was misinformed - this a push type actuator, and I needed a pull type. In other words, this actuator's shaft extends out with pressure/vacuum, where I needed a shaft that would pull in:



That and the port under the diaphragm is venting somewhere, as the plunger will not hold its position. Plus, it takes at least 15 inHg for it to begin stroking, whereas the the original actuator starts stroking at 2-3 inHg, and is completely finished by 15. <Sigh> back to the drawing board for this one. At least it's returnable to Jegs and all it's cost is the air freight. Too bad, as it's a nice piece of work.

Think I'll probably go to an industrial air cylinder supplier and just get them to make me what I need.

 

[pwd]

John, get in touch with Andrew about the actuator, we where talking yesterday about being able to do what you want.

 

[scotturnot]

Wow this is a awsome build!

 

[cribbj]

Thanks Scott, yours is as well. I'll be very interested to hear how that Quartermaster clutch works out for you?

At this point in my build, that space between my motor and the Getrag is completely undecided. I want a flywheel & clutch combo that I think doesn't exist, ie:

1) Soft pedal that's easy on my old knees and won't give me charley horses in my calf muscles trying to hold it in.

2) Slippable, to get the car going smoothly

3) Steel flywheel with a bit of inertia, so the da*n thing doesn't want to stall everytime you look at it crosseyed.

4) Will still hold the torque of the supercharged 1UZ

I'm currently driving a TRD Twin Disc in my Supra, and although it has a fairly soft pedal, it's not that slippable, so starting off smoothly can be a trick until the linings get warmed up, and getting it going on an incline is always a challenge. Too, with the ultralight flywheel, grabby nature of the twin discs, the heavy car, and the lack of torque with the 2JZ motor, it's way too easy to stall.

I've always thought it was kinda funny that after the mad stampede many Supra owners made to lightened flywheels and multi disc clutches, many of those same owners very quietly returned to the stock dual mass (HEAVY) flywheels and full face, single disc clutches, albeit with pressure plates that only King Kong could operate. Then the crank walk problems began.

There's gotta be something better; and before anyone says "Tilton" let me also say that a number of people have bought the Tilton, tried it, and you can always find 1-2 of them for sale, used, with less than 500 miles, in the classifieds. Why is that?

 

[JustenGT8]

LOL I just bought a tilton Reason most buy is clear, dellusions of grandure Think they are racers with a race car so need a race clutch....just so happens said clutch is totally unstreetable. Since the GT8 will now be track only (99% anyways) i'm happy to give it a shot.

For you Cribbbj i would recommend the Aussie Direct Clutch twin plate. This is my current clutch which held 320rwkw under all conditions and copped a big of abuse. In 4 paddle it's streetable but a bit harsh. In 5 paddle i felt it was very streetable....should be able to get a 6 paddle which would be a doddle to drive. Flywheel is light but still has a bit of intertia so hill starts are fine. Price is very reasonable coming in under $2K AUD so about the cheapest option out there of this spec. Anyways, another option to consider

 

[Zuffen]

John,

Couple of comments.

I'd use a lock nut on the Snow foggers (I certainly will be)to eliminate any risk of the fogger interacting with the supercharger rotors.

On the clutch front I looked at many options and being old (like you!!) I've opted for a 12kg flywheel that can carry an 11.4" single plate organic clutch.

With the appropriate clamping force it will hold any torque I can generate.

Nissan Patrol's have huge clamping force and they use a small power booster (like your brakes but much smaller) to lighten the load. Nissan trucks use higher pressure but the same size clutch so I assume they have more assistance.

You can get remote boosters (I'm sure Summit woud sell them) for brakes that should do the same job.

 

[cribbj]

Justen thanks, that Aussie Direct clutch sounds a lot like the TRD I'm driving now. It's a 6 puck, metallic lined, twin disc affair, but with a fairly light chromoly flywheel - somewhere around 6 to 10kg's I'd guess. The whole clutch/flywheel assembly only weighs 15 kilos. I think I want to find something more like Rod's, if I can manage to lighten up the pedal too.

BTW, here's a pic of the TRD Twin Disc:


Cheers Rod, the thought of that nozzle stuck there with nothing but Loctite has been bothering me too. I might have to go to a 3/8" ell after all, or else spot weld the nozzle to the ell, which would then make it impossible to clean....

I like the idea of your clutch and big*ss flywheel. I'd just about decided that I wasn't going to go below 15 kilos for the flywheel, which is what the stock one weighs, but then the 1UZ "should" have heaps more torque available than the 2JZ, so I'm still on the fence. Cheapest thing to do, probably would be to figure out how to make my existing TRD work with the 1UZ flex plate and/or ring gear, and just try that first.

 

[turboandrew]

You could modify a supra (or your TRD twin disc's) flywheel to fit the 1UZ ring gear and slot the mounting holes a couple of mm's outward to accommodate the 1UZ crank bolt pattern. Then send off those discs to south bend clutch and have them re-lined with kevlar. That should make the clutch a lot more forgivable. That way all the hydraulics from the supra will still work (this is assuming you are using a TTC v160 adapter, or a different one that is 3/4" thick).

The quartermaster clutches do look tempting, especially with those flywheel inserts that go with with existing flex plate. I wonder if you can order the disks with kevlar or carbon (without costing a fortune), or just send them the SBC to get relined.

 

[cribbj]

Andrew, do you happen to have the figures for the bolt circles of the 2JZ and the 1UZ flywheels/cranks?

With my luck, probably by the time I get through modifying my TRD flywheel to fit, and getting the plates relined with Kevlar or organic, I could have bought a whole new Quartermaster clutch & flywheel. I don't think they're that expensive.

BTW, did you ever get anywhere with Rob Smith?

Maybe Scott will jump in here and provide the latest info from QM. The last time I spoke with them (a year ago maybe?), they weren't planning on offering anything but metallic linings with this clutch, and IIRC, they didn't think Kevlar was such a hot idea (perhaps because they couldn't offer it?)

 

[turboandrew]

Quartermaster is probably easier to do, even if you have to re-line somewhere else. I would guess quartermaster does not have the ability to do kevlar. Maybe you could buy one disc (or someone's trashed disc) and send it to SBC and see what they say. The custom flywheel with Rob Smith went absolutely nowhere for 9+ months, and I finally asked for my money back. I was really pissed off that they could say, literally every month, "it's next in line". This industry is plagued with so many people who promise but wont deliver, so sad...

 

[scotturnot]

Andrew, do you happen to have the figures for the bolt circles of the 2JZ and the 1UZ flywheels/cranks?

With my luck, probably by the time I get through modifying my TRD flywheel to fit, and getting the plates relined with Kevlar or organic, I could have bought a whole new Quartermaster clutch & flywheel. I don't think they're that expensive.

BTW, did you ever get anywhere with Rob Smith?

Maybe Scott will jump in here and provide the latest info from QM. The last time I spoke with them (a year ago maybe?), they weren't planning on offering anything but metallic linings with this clutch, and IIRC, they didn't think Kevlar was such a hot idea (perhaps because they couldn't offer it?)

Yep, still only metallic, I wasnt thrilled but I will give it a try. It really is a sweet setup but the proof will be in the streetability of it. I will keep you posted. With any luck I may have mine driving by mid December.

 

[JustenGT8]

Yeah i think you're right there Cribby, the TRD setup would be comparable to the DC twinplate. The DC flywhel might be a little heavier but only talking a 1/2 kg so nothing significant.

I also ran this setup in my GT4 AWD with full face organic and your granny could drive that...awesome for launching the AWD as could slip and balance for optimum rpm/traction and avoid bogging. I did alot of that though and didn't get great life outta the clutch (12,000km)

 

[cribbj]

I also ran this setup in my GT4 AWD with full face organic and your granny could drive that...awesome for launching the AWD as could slip and balance for optimum rpm/traction and avoid bogging. I did alot of that though and didn't get great life outta the clutch (12,000km)

Now that's exactly what I'm looking for - a granny clutch and it sounds similar to what Rod is doing for his build, albeit with a bit more clamping....

Think I'll refer to it as that when I'm talking to suppliers. You young pups who are full of p*ss and testosterone can have those triple plate on/off switches for your stoplight to stoplight drag races, Rod & I are gonna drive our supercharged 1UZ's with the granny clutches down to the bank to deposit our pension checks

 

[rms]

Andrew, do you happen to have the figures for the bolt circles of the 2JZ and the 1UZ flywheels/cranks?

John,
Our flywheels (1UZ) are machined to,

PCD - 3.140" 79.75mm
Bolt hole - .400" 10.16 mm

Crank spiggot is actual 41.98/42 mm

With your GT40 project I will be surprised if there is anything left of your pension cheque.

Will have to talk to you re CAV GT40's. My son is interested in building one (if I build it for him).

 

[cribbj]

Erol, thanks for the dimensions. I'll need to measure a 2JZ too.

Those CAV's are nice - stainless monocoque construction so no worries about rust or corrosion with the tub. They're a bit heavier than the ally mono's and spaceframes that others build, but if your son's not going to race it, then the weight difference probably isn't that important. The CAV would have been my 2nd choice, after the RCR - and what really swung it to RCR is that Fran's working with me to make the powertrain fit.

The big question - what are you/he going to power it with? A classic pushrod motor, or something a little more "contemporary" Those Ford 4.6 mod motors sure look nice in a '40..... and a 1UZ would too, and would fit even better. :fing02:

 

[Zuffen]

John,

What did your sensors and pigtails cost?

I'm in the States end of December and it may be worth ordering and bring a set home.

Not too sure the air temp sensor is in the right place for a supercharged engine.

I'm planning on putting mine in the bottom of the manifold to get air temp right before it goes down the runners.

I've been looking at ways to insulate the manifold from the radiated heat from the engine.

Phenolic spacers under the manifold would stop some of the heat being transmitted up the runners and a heat reflective coating may do the rest.

 

[cribbj]

Rod, the AEM MAP, and GM IAT with pigtails ran around $210 USD. That SS MAP sensor is EXPENSIVE, but worth it IMO, because it's an industrial grade sensor with excellent accuracy and repeatability, and each one is delivered with its own individual calibration sheet. It's made by a company called Kavlico, who are into very high grade sensors for military, industrial, and aero applications.

If you need the coolant sensor too (I'm planning to use the stock Lexus one) it'll run another $45 with pigtail. The TPS cost about $45, and the IACV about $95 from a local NAPA auto parts store. All these prices could be beaten down a fair bit by buying on the Internet, but I usually only purchase from trusted sources, or local brick & mortar parts stores.

Re: the air intake sensor, yes, mine will be post supercharger also, in the manifold. There's two schools of thought on this, but the school I'm listening to (an AEM engineer) has advised it's better to put it in the manifold. Guess AIT is a misnomer for where the sensor will actually be located, but it's just one of those acronyms that everyone knows.

Here's a screen shot of the pricing for the MAP, IAT, and CLT also if you need it. I also bought my AEM WB AFR from these folks, as well as my standalone ECU and other things several years ago. The owner Chris Bergemann is also a Supra owner that many of us have known for a long time, and they're very legit despite their somewhat off the wall name "Horsepower Freaks". Very good place for "one-stop" shopping: www.horsepowerfreaks.com