Project Thread Project SC400TT
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The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
+1
Ryan, I don't think you'll regret it, but I think, down the road, you'd regret it if you hadn't.
BTW, the SPAL's will probably pull a lot more current than whatever you have in there now, but you'll be getting "real" CFM performance from them. Make sure your relays, fuses and wiring are all up to snuff.
Depending on which models you ordered, you may need to bump your relays up to 40a, and Bosch even make a 75a that I was using on my Supra's setup, just to be sure....
Agreed...Do it right the first time, and you do not have to redo it later...
Agreed John. How do you guys feel about the harness being made of heavy gauge wire, one power source wire, one ground wire, and 1 relay handling both fans? The whole set up will be fused between the battery and the relay.
Ryan
John, I bought the Medium Profile fans, most I can fit: 30101509.
30101509Weight: 3.75 lbs.VA08-AP51/C-23A FAN (14" MP)
14" Straight Blade Medium Profile Fan / 12V Puller
From our medium profile fan line this fan is designed to exceed the performance of similar stock OEM fans. For use when improved airflow is needed on today's high performance vehicles. It is a radiator fan, intercooler fan, and AC condenser fan. Featuring a fully sealed motor that is waterproof/dustproof. Each fan is individually balanced for long life.
Right off the Spal sight. They pull 1,276 CFM each at 7 amps. 2,548 CFM should be enough to cool everything.
Thanks for the assistance. I look forward to your calcs.
Ryan
I would John, but that's just me. I'd probably experiment with it to see how I liked it.
That's a good idea and it would give you finer control down low.
I like everything about this controller except that it starts the fans at 50%. I wish it went lower than that, and your idea would essentially accomplish that.
I also like the Delta Current Controls PWM boxes (I have one each of the SPAL and the DCC that I plan to try on "something" one of these days)
http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm
The only downside of the DCC box is that it's "open". The SPAL looks a lot nicer with its Deutsch connectors.
+1
Ryan, I don't think you'll regret it, but I think, down the road, you'd regret it if you hadn't.
BTW, the SPAL's will probably pull a lot more current than whatever you have in there now, but you'll be getting "real" CFM performance from them. Make sure your relays, fuses and wiring are all up to snuff.
Depending on which models you ordered, you may need to bump your relays up to 40a, and Bosch even make a 75a that I was using on my Supra's setup, just to be sure....
SC400TT
Active Member
Agreed...Do it right the first time, and you do not have to redo it later...
Agreed John. How do you guys feel about the harness being made of heavy gauge wire, one power source wire, one ground wire, and 1 relay handling both fans? The whole set up will be fused between the battery and the relay.
Ryan
SC400TT
Active Member
John, I bought the Medium Profile fans, most I can fit: 30101509.
30101509Weight: 3.75 lbs.VA08-AP51/C-23A FAN (14" MP)
14" Straight Blade Medium Profile Fan / 12V Puller
From our medium profile fan line this fan is designed to exceed the performance of similar stock OEM fans. For use when improved airflow is needed on today's high performance vehicles. It is a radiator fan, intercooler fan, and AC condenser fan. Featuring a fully sealed motor that is waterproof/dustproof. Each fan is individually balanced for long life.
Right off the Spal sight. They pull 1,276 CFM each at 7 amps. 2,548 CFM should be enough to cool everything.
Thanks for the assistance. I look forward to your calcs.
Ryan
I just wired my fan last weekend for my 1UZ Tacoma. I ran some larger than necessary wire from the relay and configured the relay for negative trigger actuation. This way I just have a simple switch in the cab that is connected to ground and it just allows the relay to ground out to trigger the fan circuit. 
Keeps things simple with less power wires running around.
Keeps things simple with less power wires running around.
Ryan, on the SPAL USA site: http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30101509_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH it shows that fan drawing around 10 amps.
If you want to set them both up on the same feed, same relay, etc. I'd suggest a minimum of 12 gauge TXL or 14 gauge teflon insulated, silver tinned copper from McMasters http://www.mcmaster.com/#7304k151/=dkcc2d) I've been using this stuff for my ignition setups and it's great. The 14 gauge will handle 45 amps, and it's rated to nearly 400 degrees. Due to the teflon insulation and the silver tinning, it's much stiffer than the TXL, but it's more durable too.
For fusing, I'd stay away from the typical little ATO blade automotive fuses as I've had them overheat and their plastic housings melt, and cause the fans to fail. Get a large round glass fuse, like the type used for stereo installations, or a MIDI fuse like this: http://www.mcmaster.com/#9180K88. I have no experience with circuit breakers - perhaps others can chime in here.
For a relay, I'd suggest a 35 amp weatherproof type, again sold by McMaster. This will either be a Bosch or a Tyco: http://www.mcmaster.com/#9672K44 with a weatherproof socket and 12" pigtails: http://www.mcmaster.com/#8228K44
Or if you want to be really safe, go with one of these Bosch 75a relays, with anti-kickback diodes (the diodes will help save the contacts from arcing when opening): http://texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_0332002156.asp
The only disadvantage of the 75a relay is that its life is rated at 100,000 cycles at 75a resistive, or only 40,000 cycles at 60a inductive, while the 35a relay from McMaster is rated at 10,000,000 cycles. I've used both, and for my single 16" fan in the Supra, I used the 75a relay and it's lasted 8 years and counting (although in reality I rarely drive the car)
But if I were doing it again, and I was doing a pair of fans like you, I'd probably install SPAL's PWM fan controller. It's rated up to 30a, so it should be able to drive both fans together as one: http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=FAN-PWM-V3
If you want to set them both up on the same feed, same relay, etc. I'd suggest a minimum of 12 gauge TXL or 14 gauge teflon insulated, silver tinned copper from McMasters http://www.mcmaster.com/#7304k151/=dkcc2d) I've been using this stuff for my ignition setups and it's great. The 14 gauge will handle 45 amps, and it's rated to nearly 400 degrees. Due to the teflon insulation and the silver tinning, it's much stiffer than the TXL, but it's more durable too.
For fusing, I'd stay away from the typical little ATO blade automotive fuses as I've had them overheat and their plastic housings melt, and cause the fans to fail. Get a large round glass fuse, like the type used for stereo installations, or a MIDI fuse like this: http://www.mcmaster.com/#9180K88. I have no experience with circuit breakers - perhaps others can chime in here.
For a relay, I'd suggest a 35 amp weatherproof type, again sold by McMaster. This will either be a Bosch or a Tyco: http://www.mcmaster.com/#9672K44 with a weatherproof socket and 12" pigtails: http://www.mcmaster.com/#8228K44
Or if you want to be really safe, go with one of these Bosch 75a relays, with anti-kickback diodes (the diodes will help save the contacts from arcing when opening): http://texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_0332002156.asp
The only disadvantage of the 75a relay is that its life is rated at 100,000 cycles at 75a resistive, or only 40,000 cycles at 60a inductive, while the 35a relay from McMaster is rated at 10,000,000 cycles. I've used both, and for my single 16" fan in the Supra, I used the 75a relay and it's lasted 8 years and counting (although in reality I rarely drive the car)
But if I were doing it again, and I was doing a pair of fans like you, I'd probably install SPAL's PWM fan controller. It's rated up to 30a, so it should be able to drive both fans together as one: http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=FAN-PWM-V3
John, so you would run the SPAL fan controller powering two fans as though they were one 20a fan?
Why not go ahead and get a second relay along with the controller and be able to run the fans independently in staged format? This would alow "tuning" the fans for minimal noise. Start one fan at 50% power at a lower temp creating a smoother quieter and somewhat redundant setup.
I definitely like the features created by the controller which should extend fan motor life considerably, lower spiking of amp draw at start up, and make for a more refined installation.
"SPAL's all new programmable fan controller allows you to vary the speed of a single SPAL cooling fan based on engine temperature. This results in increased fan life and reduced operational noise.
You simply choose the Low and High temperature settings you desire. When the low temperature setting is reached the fan begins spinning at 50% speed. As the engine temperature increases, the speed of the fan slowly increases until it reaches the High setting, where it is then running at 100%.
The system can operate dual fan setups with the ability to trigger an external fan relay to power your second fan. An input for your air conditioning system allows fans to run at 100% when the A/C is activated. Built in timing features keep fans off during modern vehicle defrost cycles. On board status indicator lights report error codes and let you know the FAN-PWM-V3 is active and ready.
Many new additional features including fan status output for in vehicle verification of fan operation, over current protection and smart soft start for lower inrush spikes from the fan system just to name a few."
Why not go ahead and get a second relay along with the controller and be able to run the fans independently in staged format? This would alow "tuning" the fans for minimal noise. Start one fan at 50% power at a lower temp creating a smoother quieter and somewhat redundant setup.
I definitely like the features created by the controller which should extend fan motor life considerably, lower spiking of amp draw at start up, and make for a more refined installation.
"SPAL's all new programmable fan controller allows you to vary the speed of a single SPAL cooling fan based on engine temperature. This results in increased fan life and reduced operational noise.
You simply choose the Low and High temperature settings you desire. When the low temperature setting is reached the fan begins spinning at 50% speed. As the engine temperature increases, the speed of the fan slowly increases until it reaches the High setting, where it is then running at 100%.
The system can operate dual fan setups with the ability to trigger an external fan relay to power your second fan. An input for your air conditioning system allows fans to run at 100% when the A/C is activated. Built in timing features keep fans off during modern vehicle defrost cycles. On board status indicator lights report error codes and let you know the FAN-PWM-V3 is active and ready.
Many new additional features including fan status output for in vehicle verification of fan operation, over current protection and smart soft start for lower inrush spikes from the fan system just to name a few."
I would John, but that's just me. I'd probably experiment with it to see how I liked it.
That's a good idea and it would give you finer control down low.
I like everything about this controller except that it starts the fans at 50%. I wish it went lower than that, and your idea would essentially accomplish that.
I also like the Delta Current Controls PWM boxes (I have one each of the SPAL and the DCC that I plan to try on "something" one of these days)
http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm
The only downside of the DCC box is that it's "open". The SPAL looks a lot nicer with its Deutsch connectors.
SC400TT
Active Member
John and John,
Thanks so much for your very informative comments and suggestions...For now, I am keeping it simple, and letting my Autronic control and run it all. Including the AC.
Good news is I have been able to carve out enough time to finally build the harnesses. They are completed. I simply need to connect them and install the fans. I will be working on it tonight when I get home for a little while. I will update you all how it turns out.
The harnesses look good. I used 10 gauge wire for both power and ground. I also installed a couple of quick disconnects:
Ryan
Thanks so much for your very informative comments and suggestions...For now, I am keeping it simple, and letting my Autronic control and run it all. Including the AC.
Good news is I have been able to carve out enough time to finally build the harnesses. They are completed. I simply need to connect them and install the fans. I will be working on it tonight when I get home for a little while. I will update you all how it turns out.
The harnesses look good. I used 10 gauge wire for both power and ground. I also installed a couple of quick disconnects:
- At the fans, I used weatherproof bullet connectors.
- near the relays, I used insulated dual bullet connectors which allow me to disconnet the power and ground quickly and easily.
- I installed the fuses on the fan side of the quick disconnects, utilizing screw down glass tube fuse receptacles with 30 amp fuses.
- Each fan is on it's own dedicated harness and relay, power and ground.
- I created a "Y" connection for the signal wire from the ECU to signal each relay.
Ryan
SC400TT
Active Member
Update on fans
Well, I found I had a mess with the wires connected to the relays for the fans...I do not know how they got connected that way as I do not understand how the fans would have even fired up...Anyway, I pulled up a fan diagrams off the web and figured it all out. The harnesses are all correct on the relay side now as well. So, I drained the fluid, removed the radiator and the "other" electric fans, and looked closely at the brackets the guy sent me to mount the Spals, and I noticed that these brackets will not work well at all...Here is a pic of them:
So, I decided not to even attempt to make these work...I contacted the Spal dealer and ordered these instead:
These brackets include the foot bracket and a metal strap. I decided that I am tired of pulling the radiator out and reinstalling it again and again, so I made an executive decision to make a custom mounting strap that will mount horizontally across the radiator at the top and the bottom. Then, I will mount the fans and the mounting brackets pictured above, to the metal straps. Much cleaner, much more secure and I do not have to worry about ever damaging the core with tie straps pushed through the radiator. Plus, Spal recommends that the fans are mounted 1/4" off of the surface of the radiator to allow for any potential "fan flex" due to accleration and such while driving. These straps will accomplish just that distance. Of course, I will not receive the brackets until this Friday, but at least, just in time for the weekend to complete.
Also, I plan to fabricate an aluminum shroud...I will design it with rubber flaps covering additional holes in the shroud or with some sort of venting so that I get the efficiency of the shroud at idle, but the air flow through the shroud when driving at cruising or higher speed. I do not wish to experience any further shroud "deadheading" like I did with the previous fans/shroud set up that I sold. We wil see how it works. I have already drawn the design for the shroud.
Unfortunately, this will delay me a little, but at this point, cooling is critical, and I do not wish to blow my motor by shortcutting anything.
Another addition, I decided to not utilize the Autronic traction control as it requires me to add additional ABS wheel sensors that it is compatible with...So, I am purchasing a Race Logic traction control system, installing it and having Darin tune that too. Did I talk about blowing the budget on this project some time ago??? What budget???
I will keep you updated.
Ryan
Well, I found I had a mess with the wires connected to the relays for the fans...I do not know how they got connected that way as I do not understand how the fans would have even fired up...Anyway, I pulled up a fan diagrams off the web and figured it all out. The harnesses are all correct on the relay side now as well. So, I drained the fluid, removed the radiator and the "other" electric fans, and looked closely at the brackets the guy sent me to mount the Spals, and I noticed that these brackets will not work well at all...Here is a pic of them:
So, I decided not to even attempt to make these work...I contacted the Spal dealer and ordered these instead:
These brackets include the foot bracket and a metal strap. I decided that I am tired of pulling the radiator out and reinstalling it again and again, so I made an executive decision to make a custom mounting strap that will mount horizontally across the radiator at the top and the bottom. Then, I will mount the fans and the mounting brackets pictured above, to the metal straps. Much cleaner, much more secure and I do not have to worry about ever damaging the core with tie straps pushed through the radiator. Plus, Spal recommends that the fans are mounted 1/4" off of the surface of the radiator to allow for any potential "fan flex" due to accleration and such while driving. These straps will accomplish just that distance. Of course, I will not receive the brackets until this Friday, but at least, just in time for the weekend to complete.
Also, I plan to fabricate an aluminum shroud...I will design it with rubber flaps covering additional holes in the shroud or with some sort of venting so that I get the efficiency of the shroud at idle, but the air flow through the shroud when driving at cruising or higher speed. I do not wish to experience any further shroud "deadheading" like I did with the previous fans/shroud set up that I sold. We wil see how it works. I have already drawn the design for the shroud.
Unfortunately, this will delay me a little, but at this point, cooling is critical, and I do not wish to blow my motor by shortcutting anything.
Another addition, I decided to not utilize the Autronic traction control as it requires me to add additional ABS wheel sensors that it is compatible with...So, I am purchasing a Race Logic traction control system, installing it and having Darin tune that too. Did I talk about blowing the budget on this project some time ago??? What budget???
I will keep you updated.
Ryan
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stevechumo
Active Member
Stainless steel shroud is another alternative. Since I don't weld aluminum, I fabbed up the fan shroud using stainless steel and painted to reflect the heat. It's good to know you're still fighting it to your last breath. LOL.
SC400TT
Active Member
Thanks Steve...If this does not totally solve the issue, I will add a secondary small radiator in the right front bumper area.
Ryan
Ryan
SC400TT
Active Member
Cooling, cooling, cooling...Take it serious...
Ok,
Another update. I definitely decided not to mount the fans direct to the radiator, or even try it that way...I am not willing to go another try at "might it work without the shroud?"
I made a couple of mock up cardboard fan shrouds after talking to a company that specializes in fabricating custom aluminum shrounds and fan/shroud kits. Everything about them seems straight on, and integritous (I think I made up a new word...). It seems apparent that there is no question as to the greatly increased efficiency of a shroud, so as I always say, if I am going to do it, do it right the first time (or in this case, after trial and error), so I will not have to do it again. BTW, the name of the company that I have selected to make my shroud is TCP, Inc., located in Idaho...They recommended a shroud that only needed to be 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch deep to do the trick. I can only afford 1/2 inch, so, I am going that rout. The fans will mount on top of the shroud, instead of inside of the shroud like the previous MVP set up I had. My hope is this added efficiency will keep me from having to add a third "pusher" fan for the AC, when sitting in high noon traffic and having the air blasting on ice cold...We will see.
BTW, due to the fact that I can only afford 1/2 inch for the depth of the shroud, I am sending them my radiator, and my Spal Fans so that they can get a perfect fitment, as this is critical to everything clearing the tight tolerances. BTW, they only recommend Spal fans on their website, as they make it clear that experince has proven Spal to far superior to any other electric fan manufacturer.
Approximate cost for making the aluminum shroud is $200 plus shipping...Not bad, and I could not make one myself for less than that since I do not weld... I will keep you updated, but this adds about 2 weeks to my timeline...
Ryan
Ok,
Another update. I definitely decided not to mount the fans direct to the radiator, or even try it that way...I am not willing to go another try at "might it work without the shroud?"
I made a couple of mock up cardboard fan shrouds after talking to a company that specializes in fabricating custom aluminum shrounds and fan/shroud kits. Everything about them seems straight on, and integritous (I think I made up a new word...
). It seems apparent that there is no question as to the greatly increased efficiency of a shroud, so as I always say, if I am going to do it, do it right the first time (or in this case, after trial and error), so I will not have to do it again. BTW, the name of the company that I have selected to make my shroud is TCP, Inc., located in Idaho...They recommended a shroud that only needed to be 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch deep to do the trick. I can only afford 1/2 inch, so, I am going that rout. The fans will mount on top of the shroud, instead of inside of the shroud like the previous MVP set up I had. My hope is this added efficiency will keep me from having to add a third "pusher" fan for the AC, when sitting in high noon traffic and having the air blasting on ice cold...We will see.BTW, due to the fact that I can only afford 1/2 inch for the depth of the shroud, I am sending them my radiator, and my Spal Fans so that they can get a perfect fitment, as this is critical to everything clearing the tight tolerances. BTW, they only recommend Spal fans on their website, as they make it clear that experince has proven Spal to far superior to any other electric fan manufacturer.
Approximate cost for making the aluminum shroud is $200 plus shipping...Not bad, and I could not make one myself for less than that since I do not weld... I will keep you updated, but this adds about 2 weeks to my timeline...
Ryan
XR8tt
Active Member
Have found over the years that shrouds are more important than fans..
You can have fans that can power a 747 ..
But without good shrouds to pull air through radiator they are near useless!!!
I guess part of the issue is radiator is at its limit ? But clearance & room doesn't make it easy ...
Plenty of trucks I've worked on with overheating, have had there shrouds removed or partially fitted have all had over heating issues...
Fans seem to spin the air out centrifugally, any gap between radiator and shroud lowers fans ability to pull air through radiator...
A bigger expansion / header tank can help also to recover some coolant...
You can have fans that can power a 747 ..
But without good shrouds to pull air through radiator they are near useless!!!
I guess part of the issue is radiator is at its limit ? But clearance & room doesn't make it easy ...
Plenty of trucks I've worked on with overheating, have had there shrouds removed or partially fitted have all had over heating issues...
Fans seem to spin the air out centrifugally, any gap between radiator and shroud lowers fans ability to pull air through radiator...
A bigger expansion / header tank can help also to recover some coolant...
Last edited by a moderator:
SC400TT
Active Member
New custom shroud is back and in my hands
I got it in guys. Looks good. Gonna install it this week, and hopefully the overheating will become a distant memory and valuable learning lesson only.
Thanks TCP Performance for making these!
Here are a couple of pics:
Ryan
I got it in guys. Looks good. Gonna install it this week, and hopefully the overheating will become a distant memory and valuable learning lesson only.
Thanks TCP Performance for making these!
Here are a couple of pics:
Ryan
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Ryan, I was interested to see you going back to the shroud idea after deciding to mount the fans directly to the radiator. Did you actually try it without a shroud and was the system overheating?
And did you go with some blow out flaps on this new shroud?
I've had some overheating issues with the FCar this summer, and am chalking it up to a combination of a marginally sized radiator, plus not getting enough air through it. Sound familiar?
Which model SPAL's did you go with? Those look bigger than a pair of 14's?
And did you go with some blow out flaps on this new shroud?
I've had some overheating issues with the FCar this summer, and am chalking it up to a combination of a marginally sized radiator, plus not getting enough air through it. Sound familiar?
Which model SPAL's did you go with? Those look bigger than a pair of 14's?
