TT 1UZ power level issues.

[1uzta63]

I just read this whole thng. and I got to say man I think you have done well and I think that your post and initial write up is very good, everyone appreciates the effort in posting up your findings .
and the effort you have gone to in your build is great.

BUT in regards to the head gasket issues

if the sealing surfaces between the gaskets have been contaminated then it needs to be striped cleaned so it can be resealed when the new gasket is installed. you don't put new gaskets on a surface full of oil and coolant ,you clean everything of it so its beautiful , some even spray copper adhesive to the surfaces before fitting new gasket . I think to all the head gaskets I've ever done and how much scraping you have to do to remove them etc etc . . . they bond and once that bond has been broken well that is it really


and most importantly whilst the heads are off get them and the block decked and hardness tested they could be soft and that could be the reason that thay aren't holding pressure . the hardness test is not evasive nor damaging and is easy to do, and should be done an any aluminum heads and blocks.

with regards to the aftermarket ecus , allot of it is in the hands of the tuner, but it doesn't have to be, you can buy a wide band sensor and go road tuning to get general drivability , idling , cold start tuned by yourself. with the technology these days and the best invention "wideband" there is no reason that a aftermarket ecu should perform inferior in any way . they can even run in closed loop so there is no reason you should fail your emissions tests either.

my 2 cents , long time reader , I don't post much but this got my attention. sometimes its the simple tings that get over looked.

 

[rdm20fan]

I wouldn't be concerned with gaskets, coils etc. There's more to it, the power isn't showing, to run 131mph with a car weighing say 3700lbs you need about 600-620hp at the engine. Factory headed and 8.5:1 CR we were seeing that power on about 15psi and around 730hp@23psi on gasoline, with E85 mix you should be up 20-30hp more.

I'm stating what I belive to be wheel Hp, and I think you are talking HP at the crank.

I just read this whole thng. and I got to say man I think you have done well and I think that your post and initial write up is very good, everyone appreciates the effort in posting up your findings .
and the effort you have gone to in your build is great.

BUT in regards to the head gasket issues

if the sealing surfaces between the gaskets have been contaminated then it needs to be striped cleaned so it can be resealed when the new gasket is installed. you don't put new gaskets on a surface full of oil and coolant ,you clean everything of it so its beautiful , some even spray copper adhesive to the surfaces before fitting new gasket . I think to all the head gaskets I've ever done and how much scraping you have to do to remove them etc etc . . . they bond and once that bond has been broken well that is it really


and most importantly whilst the heads are off get them and the block decked and hardness tested they could be soft and that could be the reason that thay aren't holding pressure . the hardness test is not evasive nor damaging and is easy to do, and should be done an any aluminum heads and blocks.

with regards to the aftermarket ecus , allot of it is in the hands of the tuner, but it doesn't have to be, you can buy a wide band sensor and go road tuning to get general drivability , idling , cold start tuned by yourself. with the technology these days and the best invention "wideband" there is no reason that a aftermarket ecu should perform inferior in any way . they can even run in closed loop so there is no reason you should fail your emissions tests either.

my 2 cents , long time reader , I don't post much but this got my attention. sometimes its the simple tings that get over looked.

I agree with you, And I'm sure an aftermarket ECU can perform all the jobs just as well as a stock ECU. The issue is programing it. spending the time to program it. purchasing all the sensors, and guages to check that you are programing it correctly, and then spending the time to do it.
It's not easy, and it's not cheap.
What mostly happens is a tune that is good for wide open throttle, or a good tune which is coppied from one application and put on a bunch of other ones hoping it works the same.

 

[FoPar]

A good tuner can get it right. Doesn't take long. The down low tuning took the longest about 30-45mins, the rest within 5-6 pulls on high boost it was done.

The 1/4mph calculator doesn't lie, shows MPH n times we should be achieving. The Capri makes 870rwhp with Powerglide that uses roughly 25%, so that makes about 1150hp at engine. The car runs the MPH it should 8.31@165 the mph you run 131mph for a car weighing 3700lbs means you have around 620hp at flywheel

 

[rdm20fan]

A good tuner can get it right. Doesn't take long. The down low tuning took the longest about 30-45mins, the rest within 5-6 pulls on high boost it was done.

The 1/4mph calculator doesn't lie, shows MPH n times we should be achieving. The Capri makes 870rwhp with Powerglide that uses roughly 25%, so that makes about 1150hp at engine. The car runs the MPH it should 8.31@165 the mph you run 131mph for a car weighing 3700lbs means you have around 620hp at flywheel

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are right a good tune for W.O.T. (Wide Open Throttle) does not take that much time. Just as it doesn't take that much time with my additional injector controller.
I'm not debating this.
Getting an aftermarket ECU to do everything the Toyota does with the stock ECU does take a lot of time. you can't spend 30-40 minutes, and a few dyno pulls to get the aftermarket ECU to do anything other then WOT pulls.
I'm sure toyota spends more time then this on each sensor of the motor.
I still have all the benefits of this. My car starts, runs, idles basically like it did the day i purchased it. (Thats not really ture, I took the EGR off and it idles a little low when its hot.)

 

[stevieg]

Yeah an hour or two on the dyno gets your WOT pretty damn close and if you go with something like a megasquirt (I'm running ms3pro) your drive ability tuning can be auto tuned through normal driving around town via the VE Analyze live portion of the software, it analyzes realtime your current VE table, Wideband O2 sensor readings, and your target AFR tables.

Basically two hours on dyno, then just drive the car and it auto tunes.

Not that difficult or time consuming

 

[rdm20fan]

I have been using Great Lakes Dragaway's HP calculator to estimate my HP.
I have not had the car dynoed at these levels.
Here is the website I have been using to calculate my numbers.
http://www.greatlakesdragaway.com/index.php?page=analyzers

ET is not a good determination of HP, but your trap speed is. This is the reason a car's ET can change from run to run, while the trap speed stays the same.

It takes a determined amount of HP to move a weight to an obtained speed. The amount of time it takes to do this can be affected by traction.

I am using the figures of 3700lbs car, plus 200lbs driver 3900lbs
My best trap speed was 133mph
When I put those numbers in I get 716 net HP (Crank)
or about 600 to the wheels. (my estimate for trans lose)
This is not an exact figure. It is used to explain my results to a 1UZ.


Your Ford Capri wasn’t offered here in the states. I did a little bit of looking on Wikipedia, and it stated the highest weights on a Ford Capri being 2688 lbs with most cars weight being around 2100-2300 lbs.
This is also a full weight stock car. How and why did you get the weight up so much on your capri.
2688 lbs at 165 net you about 940hp
2200 lbs at 165 nets you about 770hp

Are you sure your car isn’t as fast as it is due to the weight of the car, and maybe not on the amount of HP?

 

[rdm20fan]

Yeah an hour or two on the dyno gets your WOT pretty damn close and if you go with something like a megasquirt (I'm running ms3pro) your drive ability tuning can be auto tuned through normal driving around town via the VE Analyze live portion of the software, it analyzes realtime your current VE table, Wideband O2 sensor readings, and your target AFR tables.

Basically two hours on dyno, then just drive the car and it auto tunes.

Not that difficult or time consuming

I'm not that frimular with mega squirt nor an I with many of the aftermarket ECU's Stevie.

All this post is for is to explain the results I got with my set up.

 

[FoPar]

the class we race in x275 the car must weigh a minimum of 3200lbs http://www.austprostassc.com.au/X275_Rules.shtml the rules are clearly stated there. factory weight of the car is 2400lbs, by the time you remove the 4-cylinder engine, add a V8, cage, 9'' diff, turbo's, chassis connectors so the car does not twist amongst numerous other things that becomes heavy, plus 280lb driver, the absolute lightest we can get is 3050lbs that is with fibreglass bonnet and exhaust dropped. In x275, the full exhaust, steel bonnet and 20kg are added. the cars are weighed before racing and after finals we keep the car at 3220lbs for racing (8.2 BB v8 power adder 3500lbs, SB V8 power adder 3200lbs, except nitrous SB 3050lbs, raised cam and or widened pan rail, tall decks etc add 150lbs)

ET is not a good calculation as you said but that is the ultimate goal, to run as close to the perfect ET as possible, MPH tells the story. some of the number's i see pumped out on dyno's then the car never performs anywhere near the power.

i love street cars, that's where my passion lies and help heaps of guys set their street cars up and pass info etc to, here's a couple friends racing their street cars, both factory ECU, the blue one is a 6-cylinder 4L and is the owner's daily driver, he does 300miles a week with it, it's also IRS has been 9.9@145mph best, both cars weigh 4200lbs and make similar HP (blue one had converter issue that pass, runs factory 6-speed auto) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2-sSbOm2xo should've ran 144mph but he eased off it as injector's were maxxing out, has 1000cc's.

if your tuner can't get the car to drive like factory with an aftermarket ECU, get another tuner. an aftermarket ECU may not be able to control all the same things as factory ECU but it can control timing and fuel as good as one.

 

[stevieg]

I'm not that frimular with mega squirt nor an I with many of the aftermarket ECU's Stevie.

All this post is for is to explain the results I got with my set up.

That's all well and good, by your own admission you don't have a lot of experience with aftermarket ecu's. That also makes you unqualified to make the statement that afterMarket ecu's are difficult to tune and make run like stock. My car runs like stock, doesn't have any hiccups or hesitations, runs like stock and DOESNT lift head gaskets.

Sorry that last part was a bit snarky, the ONE thing I can tell you about the 1uz ecu's is that there's maybe two or three people in the world that have cracked the ecu's and actually know how the factory has programmed it to behave.

For example the stock ECU plays with timing between shifts of the stock automatic to make it shift smoother

 

[stevieg]

Getting off on a tangent here and not to downplay the success you have had making these power levels using a stock ecu and additional injector controller is great.

But you're making the statement that you lifting the heads has nothing to do with your engine management setup is not a claim that you can empirically make when there's been this many very accomplished and knowledgable people say that you're handicapping yourself by staying with stock and then blaming your problems on other culprits

 

[gloverman]

The Debate over stock verses aftermarket could go on for ages. The factories have a team of techs setting up management for each model , testing different combos of parts until they are happy. This is why stock vehicles drive so well. When modifactions are done this can compremise the tune.

A well set up Aftermarket will run a engine as well if not better than stock. When I set them up I spend a lot of time making everything work like it should. I keep idle control , cold starts like normal , totally drivable and often with better fuel economy. I do the a/c control and much of the body control too and also many now have electronic trans control as well. Also some now have OBD2 test outputs which may be suitable for your emissions test.

To get the results you have with the system you have is an awesome achievement. There are several issues you have raised. Headbolts and head gaskets would be my first port of call. You indicate that these might be an issue so I would recommend flicking the heads off and taking a look. If you have serious detonation issues the headgaskets and pistons will tell a story.

Next some testing would be in order. You said you don't think you are getting detonation. Better to know. Get some test equipment and find out. As the stock ECU is still in there some monitoring of the timing is easy. At WOT on stock ECU they generally sit around 20 degrees (JDM ecu) The overall map is quite conservative.

EGT's may also be helpful. I only use these as a guide.

Reading over the thread you mentioned the AFR's are fat in the 10s. Stoich on E85 is around 9.7/9.9 to 1 with max power lean being around 8.5 to 1 so with the petrol injectors reducing the effective Ethonal ratio you still might be a little lean. What have you done to work out the position of the present AFR's?

 

[rdm20fan]

Reading over the thread you mentioned the AFR's are fat in the 10s. Stoich on E85 is around 9.7/9.9 to 1 with max power lean being around 8.5 to 1 so with the petrol injectors reducing the effective Ethonal ratio you still might be a little lean. What have you done to work out the position of the present AFR's?

Thanks Gloverman. I have been a little unclear on what my AFR need to be with E85. A lot of the info I seem to read is running 100% ethanol, or methanol.
That and I'm also running additional fuel as gasoline.
I have had the car that fat before, and it didn't seem to make the same power. But if you think 10's might be a little lean I will fatten it back up next year and see if the numbers change a little.
I am the tuner in my application. so little tips like this help me get this hobby of mine to preform better.
I'm looking to get a couple of new head gaskets, take the heads off and take a good look at what's going on in there. Right now I'm thoughts are that the head gasket has been compromised and its failing more easily then it should be.
The debate over stock ecu vs standalone is not of interest to me.
I was told this years ago, and how 400hp wasn't possible on a stock ecu.
I'll just keep plugging along and seeing where I can push this.
Thanks again

 

[chrisman]

wow,, a lot of action on the forums.. kinda nice..il give my two cents here.. we are not really sure what rdms car is doing,when he changed out the headbolts for studs,, we never removed the head or gasket...we just exchanged one for the other---bolt for stud..really not ideal,,but it was simple and quick.. id like to look into it further and may ,since it is our winter season up here.. id like to add that this car has brought a lot of rdms ideas to life,, and I believe has taken a different road than most..and it has had success and seems to be getting better allthe time.. who knows whats in store for the future--maybe a stand alone...but so far,, we have not had the need to switch to a stand alone..i think it will run a bit better as is.. id also like to say very little time hs been in the tunning.. its just a hobby "cars"for rdm and being such I make him do all his own tunning... so there is much to learn..but, so far so good--but don't be surprised if the car keeps getting better--lastly remember that rdm is a reg guy with responsibilities and just throwing money at the car was never an option--I guess that's what accounts for all the creativity...

 

[Sudsy]

Best would be to hardness test both block and heads Then have them surfaced and see what happens. No need for this to turn into an argument as standalone or factory ecu is better. Use what you are happy with

 

[gloverman]

Ive been doing a couple of turbo petrol cars with water meth injection lately and trying to find their sweet spot. Using the dyno I was able to watch the richness increase to the point I was losing power when the water meth started then started leaning it out (and advancing timing) until it stopped getting an increase in power. With a bit of searching you will find some tables on approximate AFR's for your Ethonal mix. Do a couple of calculations to work out your E percentage and work from there. Every engine is a little different. Some will be perfectly happy richer or leaner than others. If it didnt make power with richer then you might have it pretty close.

Road tuning the same principles apply but it is a little harder. I've also just done a avgas tune and a Methonal tune on a sprintboat. The two tunes are worlds apart. Both river tuned. Our competition spent a week on the engine dyno. We spent a few days on the water and we won. Checking for Detonation was really important. We aimed for the base numbers then adjusted from there and would do another run. When we stopped getting an increase in RPM we stopped adjusting. This engine wanted lots of timing and relatively lean (for Meth anyway) at .72 lambda

Getting some dyno access is really helpful too but it seems this isn't easy everywhere in the world. I often tune with the customer present but now chose to work with people I want to work with , not just anyone that wants a tune. We just agree on a figure and I tune until I'm happy with the result, like it was my own car.

 

[FoPar]

best to tune in a scale you're familiar with, I still use gas AFR with E85.

You can throw a shitload of timing and E85 at it, or lean it out and it loves it. We run 11:1 and run the same timing as we did with 8.5:1, timing makes the most difference

 

[rdm20fan]

Chris did a good job of explianing my project/hobby.
I am the tuner on the project, so I am fairly happy that I am only tuning the car for WOT, as I see how much the car changes with things like temp change. It is something I seem to be always chasing.

The power has seemed to be good in the low 10 range, but I might try and richen it up again, and start from there. The
motor is probably getting something between an E60-65 to an E80 mix.
The change in fuel is probably another reason I keep chasing the AFR.
all of my tuning has been on the street/track.
Im using the trap speed mostly, and my rear end to determine where the power seems to be. It seems to like it leaner, but I want to stay on the fat side to be safe.
I have had the AFR's on the 8's and the car just doesn't make any power. it seems to be good in the 10,s but I can take another look at it for sure.
Next season I'll try n start at a afr in the 9's and see how it feels.

 

[rdm20fan]

Gloverman, what kind of results are you finding with the water/Meth injection. I have a kit, but it was a 2 nozzel system. With the side feed intake on the 1st gen 1UZ, we felt that some of the cylinders would get more then others so I never put it on. Now it is easier to get 8 nozzels, and put them in each runner.
Do you think this could be a benifit. I am running a lot of Ethanol on the motor as is. I don't know if I would be a bennifit toward HP or TQ.

 

[FoPar]

8,9,10 AFR's are way too fat, you are costing yourself 20-30hp. Drop it into the 11's. That's on GAS scale or around .8 lambda

Run the Meth injection pre-turbo, run a 70% water 30% Meth mix. Have it come on after 10psi.

 

[rdm20fan]

Thanks Fopar,
Although I think that would be great for cooling, I don't think water injection in front of the turbos on my application is a good idea. I think it will pool in, or after the intercooler.
I'm still running an Air Flow Meter, and I'm sure it won't do anything good for that. Plus with the side intake I'm afraid that the heavier particulars of water will try to stay on a straight path, and all go to one bank of cylinders instead of the hard 180 turn to go to all cylinders equally.