"Coil on plug" coils for 1UZFE

[Jake Breyck]

Kdog that engine looks to have an almost identical setup to what i was planning on doing, do you have any more pics of it? and the car its going into thanks.

as for cops going bad, it wont stop the whole engine it will just missfire like any other ingition system, ive had them go bad on supras that ive worked on and the car still run low 10s and 9s with a dead cop. oviously we where not trying to run it on a dead cyl ;-)

 

[KDog]

Yeah I have a few more pics on my home computer, i'll try and post them up tonight. Its a TT going in an EH. It will be registered as an Individually Constructed Vehicle due to the very extensive modifications of um, well the whole car.

I didn't realise the demand was that high for a CDI, M&W, Autronic and Motec are all around the same price range for 4 channel, but the motec 8 channel comes in around $2K mark ouch.

I have to design the unit to be modular ie so I can offer 2,4,6,8 channels easily without too much manufacturing changes. A couple of months should do me if I can get motivated to do it. lol

 

[JustenGT8]

So what motivation do you need Russ? I'd be keen for one....I assume the Autronic CDI is 4 channel and i'd rather not go wasted spark if i can do better.

 

[cribbj]

I'd be interested in an 8 channel box or 2 x 4 channel boxes. No more waste spark for me.

A mux would be handy as Erol said, but only for those using an ECU that can support it like the MoTeC.

 

[KDog]

Well the CBR (600 i think) COPs aren't quite right but they will do the job. They are a little bit short for the stock cam covers when using a NGK BKR7E-11 plug (which has to have the tip machined down to fit in the COP) by about 4mm but the BP series of plugs has a removable end. If you could find a longer plug (i know the GSXR are the same COP but slightly shorter) it would be ideal. The CBR COPs have been used successfully many times with the Autronic CDI.

Using a bike CDI could be a bad idea. They usually have the coil/CDI/MAP in the one encapsulated unit which makes them unworkable. Plus they aren't very powerful, have the most basic MAP in them and generally not the most reliable units.

 

[JustenGT8]

Good to hear at least that the utronic will work with the CBR600 CoP as that's what i have....will keep in mind as fallback.

However, doesn't going wastespark kinda defeat the purpose of going CoP in the 1st place? I mean with CoP you are looking for the best spark control which seems wasted (pardon the pun) ?

 

[KDog]

There has never been and never will be problems with using wasted spark.
I have never heard (and will never hear) a reasonable explanation for not using it. Its very rare that you come across someone who understands what is actually occuring in the cylinder to cause ignition or what is happening during ignition. Unforutnately all of the bad press is made up by those with zero knowledge for the subject and there reasoning doesn't follow the laws of physics in this universe.

Now here's a nice pic of the wiring on the engine with ECU/CDI/ firewall connectors.

 

[cribbj]

Russell, what happens with a wasted spark ignition if there is unburnt mixture in the cylinder or manifold due to a misfire?

Why is it that wasted spark systems have a greater propensity for backfiring than non wasted spark?

Why do professional engine preparers settle for waste spark for their NA engines, but demand a fully sequential system for their high BMEP FI engines?

Why did Toyota put a fully sequential ignition on the TT Supra, when the majority of their other engines were running waste spark systems? A waste spark system could have significantly reduced the cost of the Supra - something which Toyota were very keen to do.

Why has Lexus gone to a fully sequential ignition for the new 1UR-FSE, since the majority of Toyota engines now run waste spark systems?

Lastly, when making cylinder ignition trim adjustments for the rearmost cylinder in a 2JZ-GTE, which historically runs lean and hot, do you really want to be making that same trim adjustment for its complementary cylinder, the #1 which is at the front of the engine and historically runs cooler and richer than the rest?

Perhaps I'm one of those with zero knowledge of the subject and my reasoning doesn't follow the laws of the universe, but I put waste spark ignitions into the same category as batch fired injectors. They're both bandaids.

To me, you simply can't get the optimum power out of an engine if you're trying to control 2 or more cylinders with the same signal.

 

[KDog]

John,
1) Your concern for misfires is astounding. Fix the cause of the fuel rather than blame its ignition source. If I follow your point correctly we should get rid of hot exhaust valves and hot exhuast systems. That will cure the misfire.

2) Professional/race engine builders knowledge of how engines actually work are one of the worst things the automotive industry has to put up with. You will never find a more poorly tuned engine than that of a race car. Yes I can say that as a general rule becuase 90% of them are crap. These teams spent copious amounts of money on the whole car, except for when it comes to engine management and tuning, where spending $1 is too much. Whilst that attitude is changing it isn't changine anywhere near as fast as it should be. The ability to purchase a dyno does not make someone an engine tuner. Unfortunately most people don't realise this. Good tuners are very few.

3) Why do toyota do anything??? Why do they different engine ECUs for the same engine in essenetially the same car? Why do they produce so many different parts for different cars or even the same car? Clutching at straws with this post.

4) It makes no difference to the trim (for ECUs which allow it) wether you have wasted spark or not. Why do you think you can't?

As an example I have done rally car(s) which run wasted spark and anitlag. The small wasted spark occurs at around 28degrees after TDC which is well into the intake cycle. Never had any problems, nor do i know of any competent tuner who has.

 

[JustenGT8]

Happy to take advice from those with more knowledge on this than me...that's why where here eh

Have run wasted spark on a 4 cyl turbo before no probs so assume 8 cyl won't be any more trouble.....happy that it won't necessarily cause any probs (although cribs experience suggests there could be).

However, are there advantages to 8 channel CoP...can you get better control and a worthwhile gain?

On a slight tangent....my newly arrived VVti heads have their on CoP setup so the CBR CoP are now potentially surplus. Any idea which would be a better option to use?

 

[Pro]

i'd be in the market for an 8 channel box.

i have a set of 8 CBR COPs in my shed already.

 

[rms]

Russell,
When you state 'race' engine do you mean a race engine or a hot-rodded engine.
A 3.5ltr NME Cosworth V8 and the Tom Walkinshaw Chev for the V8 Super taxi's are race engines. And believe me, they don't quibble about spending another $50k on engine management or dyno testing.

Rally cars, even WRC cars don't have race engines.
A modified engine in a street car is not a race engine however much people might like to think they are.

I do not know of any genuine race engine that uses wasted spark including engines from Toyota, Honda and Nissan for CART, IRL, Le Mans etc.

There appears to be no problem using wasted spark on a hot-rodded engine with 'normal' cam specs, but when you start to use extreme cam timings (330deg, inlet open 60deg BTDC, 5mm lift at TDC overlap) with large reversions at low (idle to 5000) rpm the requirements are not 'normal'.

I agree with the 90% of hot-rodded engine tuning bit. Look at how many Microtech ECU's are out there. An electronic tap! :flowers1:

Still need a 1 trigger - 8 out CDI unit to trigger Mercruiser coils.

Erol

 

[cribbj]

I think Russell and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm just a hardheaded old engineer, and he's the young bright one.

As Erol has already confirmed, waste spark does not exist in "real" racing circles. There are good engineering reasons for that, and not just because "money is no object".

Plus, IMO, Toyota never does anything randomly, and if they elected to not put a waste spark ignition on their new flagship engine, you can bet they had d*mn good engineering reasons to spend the extra money.

For the same reasons we don't see batch fired injectors anymore, I believe in the future, as automakers continue to chase efficiency figures, waste spark systems will eventually fade away, because you just don't have the individual control of cylinders with a waste spark system that you do with fully sequential.

How are you going to individually control the spark to 8 cylinders when you only have 4 ignition outputs? Can't be done without a mux - at least not in my universe.

 

[KDog]

Erol,
I believe that is the attitude now. However only two years ago when I was visiting several (who shall remain un-named for obvious reasons) workshops there tuning was horendous!! And I do mean they wouldn't spend $1 on tuning. I've seen it many times. Ask the guys at EFI technology how long it has taken for them to come around.

I'm pretty sure the astra, subi and evo engines i've built are full race engines. One of them has a billet block. I spent 8 weeks doing CFD (on paper)on the inlet system of one of them (don't use cosmos its ****, it will always be **** and it will never do CFD properly). I'll put them up against any other engine of the same capacity any day of the week. No one from the ARC/wrc is reading this thread are they? If so please disregard the above info.

You can't be serious about using mercruiser coils? They are terrible. I haven't seen one last more than 6 months. Even mitsubishi jetski coils are better.

Both denso and bosch motorsport have produced race engines in europe recently which use wasted spark. The claim about IRL not doing it is also false.

John,
i don't believe money is the issue at all. It costs nippon denso nothing extra to give full control Vs wasted spark. Pretty sure its just an evolution thing as you say. I'll ask one of the nippon denso engineers next week.

Full trim control is easily done with wasted spark. Motec and EFI tech ECU both allow it. Just because you only have four outputs does not mean the engine management system doesn't know which cylinder is firing. You do not have to have the same trim for both ignition events.
Hey i'm not that young - it took me a total of 6 months to do my PhD which makes me seem young. And I take offence to that engineer comment, i'm a Physicist lol

As an interesting side note, most of this stuff was known about engines in the 30s and 40s. For some reason after WW2 all of this knowledge was lost, it wasn't until the 70s and 80s where is was relearned. I've read books on the thermodynamics of combustion written in the 30s which were more accurate and full of more information than that of papers written in the mid 80s!

 

[cribbj]

Sorry for the OT......

Russell, since you're a physicist, are you following the ongoing debate between the quantum guys and the plasma crowd? Being a EE, I tend to subscribe to the plasma side of things. To me, an electric model of the universe just makes a lot more sense.

Totally agree with you on the 30's & 40's stuff. I've just been through Karl Ludvigsen's "Classic Racing Engines" and what a treat to revisit all those wonderful old racing engines from as early as 1910-1920. Miller and his contemporaries were such geniuses.

 

[KDog]

Well i'm from the quantum mechanics (gravity waves) side so its currently quantum for me. However i'm more in it from the engineering side, once we have the data of that first 100ms or so i'll make a decision.

Yeah its a shame they didn't have today's machining abilities, it would have been interesting to see some of the more advanced concepts work instead of the paper drawings of the base models which wouldn't

 

[rms]

Russ,
Quite happy to use other than Mercruiser coils. Do you know of any smaller ? Can't use COP, packaging is our problem.

 

[KDog]

The mercury coils would be good if the ferrite wasn't so damm fragile, even foam mounted was no good.

Hmm packaging, what a pain it makes life.

Smaller, well that could be a problem. Any of the yamaha, suzuki outboard are generally reliable coils. Pretty sure they are mostly mitsubishi made but not sure on the suzuki's. The bosch MEC7171 coil is good, but not small.

The only ones I can think of which would be smaller are COPs. If you can find a stock coil which you think will fit I can test/measure it to see if its suitable for your ignition system.

 

[cribbj]

For those of you running COP's with integral ignitors, ie the LandCruiser or Echo coils, and others, what sort of EMS are you running, and how is it working out?

 

[3000hp]

For those of you running COP's with integral ignitors, ie the LandCruiser or Echo coils, and others, what sort of EMS are you running, and how is it working out?

Hi guys..

Let first introduce my self My name is Majed im from Bahrain. I was searching the net for the last week looking for the answer for this question, I also tried posting in some other forums looking for the answer, but no luck. So i thought why not ask the Toyota guys.

I do have a set of Landcruiser coils in hand part# 90919-02249 and im trying to do COP conversion for my car 3000GT-VR4. I read this thread 3 to 4 time in the last couple of days, trying to figure out how these coils works? and i do know now that these coils require 5v-0v to trigger them, Directly from the ECU. No igniter required.
The VR-4 EMS has only 3 ignition outputs running wasted spark.

I do have couple questions..
Did anybody try to run them with AEM? If so, Can i hook them in pararil, or that gona fray the EMS board?


Thanks in advance.
Majed.