"Coil on plug" coils for 1UZFE

[cribbj]

Majed, you need an ignitor to run inductive type coils from the AEM. That EMS only provides enough current to do logic level switching.

I'm curious what year Landcruiser your coils are for, because I also have a Landcruiser coil which is P/N: 90080-19027, and is the replacement for 90080-02230. It looks like the photo below - notice it has 4 pins on the connector, so it has an integral ignitor. Do yours have 4 pins also? If so then you may be able to run them directly from the AEM.....

Also check out this website put together by my friend Jeff Lucius: http://www.stealth316.com/. He has a wealth of information on there and you may find some hints on going COP with your VR4.

 

[3000hp]

Thanks criibbj for the quick replay

Yes the coils which i have have 4 pins and they look exactly same as coils in the pic.
I will try to get a pic of the coil and the part No. tomorow.
I do a lot of reading in Jeff Lucas site, it's the bible for every 3s owner , but most of the 3s guys who run COP they go 300m coils + MSD dis4 route.
What about wiring the coils in pararil? is the output voltage enough to trigger two coils?

Thanks.
Majed.

 

[cribbj]

When the AEM is setup for the TT Supra, we're also forced to run waste spark, but AEM do the parallel wiring internal to the ECU so it's transparent to the 2JZ engine.

Unfortunately the 2JZ's ignitor, which is external to the coils does not like this arrangement because it has to charge & fire the coils twice as often in waste spark, so it doesn't do a very good job of it, and we wind up having to run the HKS Twinpower DLI box to boost things a bit.

The AEM for your application is probably also wired in parallel internally, so you shouldn't have to do any parallel wiring of the coils. It will be interesting to see how the integral ignitors of those Landcruiser coils perform.

If for some reason you can't get it running, or it stumbles badly under boost, you might have the same problem with your ignitors that we did with the Supra.

I don't know if the HKS box would be interesting, but you might try the Camry coils, which look like the pic below - they're about the same length as the Landcruiser ones, but only have two terminals, so they require an external ignitor. Then you'd need to pick up a generic ignitor - perhaps a Bosch and try that, or try AEM's CDI ignition. It's "supposed" to be sorted out finally, after a catastrophic product introduction that nearly killed it, then a redesign which suffered production quality control problems. I haven't heard from anyone recently who's had problems with it, but then, maybe no one is buying it!

 

[3000hp]

Update..
Today i wiried the coils in pararil, but unfortunately there was no spark.
According to the info posted in this thread the D terminal should get ign +12v, C trigger signal from ECU, B unhooked and A should be grounded to the engine block.
I did notice one thing in these coils, when i left the ign switch in the ON position while i was looking over things in my map, the coils got so hot that you can't even touch them. is this normal with these coils or i did miss something here?

 

[cribbj]

Well, not knowing what year these Land Cruiser coils are for, in the Toyota diagrams I've seen, the wiring isn't coded A through D, it's 1 through 4, and it goes as follows:

#1 +12 switched
#2 IGF (not used with a standalone)
#3 IGT (ECU trigger)
#4 Earth

 

[andrew k.]

mycarhaspossedme,
Back in Jan. 2006 you had photos (#93 and #95) with COP's from Honda CBR. Looked great and fit under the covers. I have an Autronic SM4 ECU and am considering using a multiplexer with it to get 8 ignition channels and no waste spark. This is a turbo application. How did your modification work out? cribbj asked the question of everyone about what has been tried and what worked. So what was tried and what worked?

 

[andrew k.]

This has really sparked my interest. I have looked at some different possibilities for my application.
Using my Autronic SM4, R500 CDI, and COP's was first up. After chasing details and dimensions for that (nice, clean, under the valve cover plastic) installation, I have embarked on yet another path.
It was going to be SM4, multiplexer and OKADA (see link below) COP's with internal ignitors and coils. The multiplexer to have 8 clean ignition impulses and no wasted spark. Now it has gone towards the SM4, OKADA COP's with 4 pair double coils and a waste spark x 4.
I reason that with good A/R and a great tune a waste spark should not be a drama. My compression ratio is 8.5 with about 15 psi boost anticipated. Only looking for about 500 hp. Time will tell.


http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_direct.htm

 

[haydo_v8]

Have been trying to follow this post but cannot work out what people have used and what has worked well on the 1uzfe.

 

[fredio54]

I'm curious...

#1 +12 switched
#2 IGF (not used with a standalone)
#3 IGT (ECU trigger)
#4 Earth

Hi cribb, pin number 2, you say its not used with a standalone, is its intended purpose for the oem ion sensing feedback by chance? If not, what is it used for? Thanks.

(long time lurker, first time poster)

Fred.

 

[cribbj]

Hey Fred, don't be shy about posting, we won't bite your head off. We have over 8,400 members here, but only a handful post. We need to encourage more to contribute.

Here's an excellent article on www.autoshop101.com that explains the later Toyota ignitions and what the various signals are for:

The IGF is a feedback signal that the ignitor sends back to the ECU confirming that the ignition event for a particular coil has occurred.

The IGF signal has been around since 1994 on the Supras, and maybe even earlier for other cars, so it's not something that has just appeared lately for the ion sensing ignitions.

HTH

 

[fredio54]

Hi,

Thank you for your prompt reply and informative link, that is very interesting indeed.

As one of your other members will tell you, I'm very far from shy

The reason that I have never posted is because I don't have a Toymotor/Lexus engine to play with. If I did, you couldn't keep me away with an IP ban

My girlfriends car has a blacktop 4age in it, and I just love that, but smaller engines can make so much power with the right approach that IMO any project using a 1uzfe or even better 1gzfe would have to be something very special indeed to do it proper justice. I can't see 1000hp being a problem for a "mildly" built 1gzfe really, so a tube frame home built mid-engined supercar is pretty much the only thing I would consider putting one in.

My own current project (that I am currently far too far away from) is a Mazda 4 cylinder called the FE-DOHC, I have it swallowing about 2.2litres of fuel per minute between 6500 and 7500 at a reasonable AFR, so I estimate about 385crank hp once I iron out the tune a little more. Its the COP equipt engine in my avatar.

I don't necessarily think that having a large posting user base is that good a thing. From my experience on other forums, If those that don't know spend more time reading and less time posting, its best for everyone

You are without realising it probably quite lucky that it is the way it is

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Fred.

 

[Jake Breyck]

Hey Fred, don't be shy about posting, we won't bite your head off.

unless you post like jibby then there may be some head biteing.

 

[mycarhasposessedme]

Hey Jake, ease up on my friend jibbly, he's just a bit mentally challenged.
I think of him as the retarded guy in the mascot suit that comes on at half time and gets the crowd going.
lol

 

[V8_IS200_marcus]

Majed, you need an ignitor to run inductive type coils from the AEM. That EMS only provides enough current to do logic level switching.

I'm curious what year Landcruiser your coils are for, because I also have a Landcruiser coil which is P/N: 90080-19027, and is the replacement for 90080-02230. It looks like the photo below - notice it has 4 pins on the connector, so it has an integral ignitor. Do yours have 4 pins also? If so then you may be able to run them directly from the AEM.....

Also check out this website put together by my friend Jeff Lucius: http://www.stealth316.com/. He has a wealth of information on there and you may find some hints on going COP with your VR4.

cribbj, they are the same as the coils that came out my lexus IS200, what else is needed to make them work on the 1UZ ??

 

[cribbj]

cribbj, they are the same as the coils that came out my lexus IS200, what else is needed to make them work on the 1UZ ??

Marcus, I'm not remembering exactly what you're building there with your 1UZ project, but if you're asking what do you need in order to make these COP's work with the standard OEM ECU and 1UZ ignition setup, you can't.

First, you have to convert your 1UZ ignition to a crank triggered setup. To do that, you'll either need to be running a standalone ECU, or "perhaps" one of the later OEM ECU's, which was setup for COP's would work. You "might" also be able to do a standalone ignition with the Ford EDIS8 like I did for the breakin of my 1UZ, but I don't know if the EDIS will fire coils with integral ignitors. It would be an interesting test.

But back to your IS200 coils, then you have to confirm they're long enough to engage the plugs, and they're "skinny" enough to fit within the 1UZ's plug wells. I've done some measurements on this, so if you prefer to measure the coils instead of doing a trial fit, here they are:

For the 1UZ motor, from the top of the steel plug tubes, down to the top of the sparkplug is 95.5mm. You'll need 10mm of electrode engagement, so the coilpaks need to be at least 106mm long, from the bottom of the engagement spring up in the plug boot, to the bottom of the coilpak where it sits down on the plug tube. All said & done, the "reach" of the coilpak probably needs to be around 120-125mm.

The ID of the plug tubes is 23.5mm, and some of Toyota's coilpaks are fatter than this, and physically won't fit down in the tubes. You could probably shave their OD's a bit and get them to fit, however keep in mind these things are capable of generating over 25 kilovolts, and that insulation is probably there for a good reason.

Is this what you were after, or were you wanting to know how to wire these coils up?

 

[fredio54]

Actually, you could build an electronic dizzy that distributes the ignition events at a logic level to the different coils, BUT, you would need a custom cut cam trigger wheel, and some cunning electronics that mimic how nissan does it with the skyline. it probably wouldnt be worth it though, as the disk doesnt come standard and aftermarket ecus are a non issue in terms of pricing.

i noted that you guys are anti batch fire injection too, which may have put you off megasquirt in the past. pretty soon a box called the "megasquirt sequencer" will be around, and can drive 8 cop and 8 injectors all sequentially. its going to be around 500 - 600us apparently. its smd and very compact, not my idea of diy, but you still have to figure it out and fiddle around with it. perfect for a high output refined 1uzfe. dont hold your breath for it though, b&g are notorious for releasing later than anticipated

if you want, i can try and find the description of how nissans electronic dizzy works. effectively though, my skylines ecu outputs all 6 ign events on a single low level line, and they get routed to the different cylinders based on some counters and logic and a clever trigger wheel.

fred.

 

[V8_IS200_marcus]

Marcus, I'm not remembering exactly what you're building there with your 1UZ project, but if you're asking what do you need in order to make these COP's work with the standard OEM ECU and 1UZ ignition setup, you can't.

First, you have to convert your 1UZ ignition to a crank triggered setup. To do that, you'll either need to be running a standalone ECU, or "perhaps" one of the later OEM ECU's, which was setup for COP's would work. You "might" also be able to do a standalone ignition with the Ford EDIS8 like I did for the breakin of my 1UZ, but I don't know if the EDIS will fire coils with integral ignitors. It would be an interesting test.

But back to your IS200 coils, then you have to confirm they're long enough to engage the plugs, and they're "skinny" enough to fit within the 1UZ's plug wells. I've done some measurements on this, so if you prefer to measure the coils instead of doing a trial fit, here they are:

For the 1UZ motor, from the top of the steel plug tubes, down to the top of the sparkplug is 95.5mm. You'll need 10mm of electrode engagement, so the coilpaks need to be at least 106mm long, from the bottom of the engagement spring up in the plug boot, to the bottom of the coilpak where it sits down on the plug tube. All said & done, the "reach" of the coilpak probably needs to be around 120-125mm.

The ID of the plug tubes is 23.5mm, and some of Toyota's coilpaks are fatter than this, and physically won't fit down in the tubes. You could probably shave their OD's a bit and get them to fit, however keep in mind these things are capable of generating over 25 kilovolts, and that insulation is probably there for a good reason.

Is this what you were after, or were you wanting to know how to wire these coils up?

Hi Cribbj,

my swap is going in my IS200, as i will be useing my IS ecu as a piggyback, could i not set it up to all so run the coils like standalone? but then saying that the IS ECU can only run 6 coils! or is there a way i could get the 8 running of that ECU.....the IS coils are 90919-02230 and they are 126mm long all so the ID is ok as well, but the top of them will need to be modified to fit nicely to the cam/cover!

 

[cribbj]

Hi Cribbj,

my swap is going in my IS200, as i will be useing my IS ecu as a piggyback, could i not set it up to all so run the coils like standalone? but then saying that the IS ECU can only run 6 coils! or is there a way i could get the 8 running of that ECU.....the IS coils are 90919-02230 and they are 126mm long all so the ID is ok as well, but the top of them will need to be modified to fit nicely to the cam/cover!

Marcus if you're running the IS ECU as a piggyback, you must have another ECU as the main engine management, ie for the fuel injection, or ??? So I'm assuming you're letting the IS ECU run the rest of the car while the "main one" handles the fuel injection, and maybe ignition - is that your plan? If this is the case, then yes, you ought to be able to set those coils up to run fine.

I don't think you'll be able to get your 6 cylinder IS ECU to run the 8 cylinder motor. Even if it's physically the same box as an 8 cylinder ECU, the program that has been flashed into it will have been setup to fire injectors and ignitors with different firing angles than the V8, etc.

If your "other" ECU has at least 4 ignition outputs, then you can set it up to run these coils on the UZ. If your other ECU doesn't have enough ignition outputs, then you'll need to go with a standalone ignition, something like the Ford EDIS8, but be forewarned, the EDIS8 requires you to change the stock 12 tooth crank trigger wheel to a 36-1 arrangement, so you need to figure out whether the ECU handling your fuel injection will be OK with this crank trigger pattern. As mentioned earlier, the EDIS8 "should" be able to trigger coils with integral ignitors like you have, but I don't think anyone has tried it yet, and it would be an interesting exercise. Worst case - if it didn't work, you might have to get different coils (without integral ignitors) and run them directly from the EDIS8 box(es) as I did.

What is your "other" ECU?

Fred, I've always been curious about Nissan's electronic dizzies. At one point I was thinking of moving the trigger for the 1UZ's ignition up to the cams and using a pair of EDIS8's to fire the motor (effectively turning it back into a pair of 4 cylinder motors again)

Since the EDIS8 is a waste spark ignition, it has only 4 outputs, and it generates a firing pulse for every 90 degrees of crank rotation, or better said for every 9 teeth on the trigger wheel. So if the 36-1 trigger wheel were mounted on a camshaft drive, it would still tell the EDIS8 to fire every 9 teeth, but now it would be every 180 degrees of crank rotation, so it would be perfect for a 4 cylinder firing pattern.


If you'd want to dig up some details about these dizzies, I'd like to hear more about them. Most of us here are big fans of Toyota's engineering, but it's always good to know what the other OEM's are doing, and maybe "borrow" a few ideas now & then.......

 

[rms]

John,
The Nissan Skyline RB25 "distributor" runs from the exhaust camshaft and contains a dual optic hall sensor. The trigger plate is thin stainless and has an outer row of 72 ? slots and an inner row with 6 slots that are different widths.

When used to trigger Autronic or Motec systems I have a new plate laser cut with 6 outer slots for cylinder sync and the inner has 1 slot for reference.

They are a PITA to change the plate as they are non serviceable items with staked brgs etc, but where there is a will there is a way.

 

[cribbj]

Can't be sure, but with the broad, flat flanges, they look like Beru (maybe P/N: 06B 905 105 E), from a VW or Audi. This pic is from 034 Motorsports, who have some neat stuff. Very good pricing for these coils too - $145 for 4, which is as good or better than eBay. looking at the connectors, I'm guessing they'll be either 3 or 4 pins, so they'll have integral ignitors.