Hp Gains With Re-directed Air Conditioner?
- Thread starter jibby
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The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
Intercooling is using a air-to-air or water-to-air heat exchanger to remove heat from intake air after a compressor, be it turbo or supercharger.
Water-injection is where you spray water into the intake air.
It decreases the intake air temperature (same principal as evaportave air-conditioning) and also helps keep the combustion chamber clean.
The water (or steam) goes out the exst pipe, so you need to refill with water every now and then.
Max recommended water to fuel ratio is 1:10.
Its useful on supercharged/turboed and NA engines.
Alcohol can also be added to the water to give an octane boost.
Special high pressure pumps (stainless steel) are needed as the water rusts out and siezes normal fuel pumps.
I've not reviewed a single "modern" paper, or person/company that talks about water injection without just repeating the same old boring crap, that has become both rhetorical, and nothing more than myths.
The closest thing I can think of would be cooling fuel lines, but you'd have to cool the majority of the line as the fuel flows by so fast & then you're still looking at tons of heat & electricity wasted for eh? A simple A/C system has many times more capacity & takes less power to run.
Against that idea, I use the same argument against intake manifold insulators... Keep in mind I made & sold quite a few of them too! LoL!
Sure, I was easily able to drop peak manifold temps by large chunks & keep it substantially cooler the longer the engines were run. The problem, is that it just doesn't really matter. I never got past anything but my g-tech pro comp, but I could show a few consistent whp gains with the cooler intake manifolds.
The problem was just that. A "few" whp. The air simply flows through the dang things so fast, it's really not being heated *that* much in the upper manifolds (Toyota v6).
I always apply that rule of thumb when I'm thinking about cooling airflow, gas (I admit freely that I have never done a project so ferocious it required the thought of needing to cool gas), transmission & oil lines.
pro240c
The water does not split into base hydrogen and oxygen atoms... It goes straight out the tail pipe as it turns to steam through the combustion & exhaust system itself.
*edited*
Adding a little bit & reproof read. I'd say it was atrocious before, but I probably couldn't spell that after midnight.
jibby
New Member
How is the water or chemicals used, converted, recycled, and cooled? Don't quiet understand the concept of this intercooling to cool down intake flow...I understand how water is recycled and cooled thru the cars radiator and cooling system... I need to read up more on intercooling...
Re-useable energy that does not require constant consumption of fueling is what I was looking for...like freon, solar power, magnetism, electric energy, etc... I am a builder/contractor by trade so I have come across a lot of different power options for stuff, like solor heating, heating elements, freon, electric, chemicals, etc..So I am trying to apply some of my builders knowledge to the automobile engine.. Coming up short.....
Re-useable energy that does not require constant consumption of fueling is what I was looking for...like freon, solar power, magnetism, electric energy, etc... I am a builder/contractor by trade so I have come across a lot of different power options for stuff, like solor heating, heating elements, freon, electric, chemicals, etc..So I am trying to apply some of my builders knowledge to the automobile engine.. Coming up short.....
He's not running boost... He's N/A. Aquamist stuff works, but I'm not a fan at all. It's ungodly overpriced for what it is.
Jibby without regards to specific things (like water).
The lower the temperature, the denser something is.
The denser the air going in the engine, the more air fits in the engine.
Jibby without regards to specific things (like water).
The lower the temperature, the denser something is.
The denser the air going in the engine, the more air fits in the engine.
jibby
New Member
Toysrme - Oh, I fully understand that cooler air is denser then hotter air, hence more o2 can enter in the combustable chamber when cold which inturn will produce more hp at the wheels 
then let's say hotter air that is expanded. Same goes when filling nos bottles...If the nos bottle is cold when charged it will hold more capacity then let's say when the nos bottle is charged when warm. Heat causes expansion as recently witnessed with my hydaulic pump on my sc...
then let's say hotter air that is expanded. Same goes when filling nos bottles...If the nos bottle is cold when charged it will hold more capacity then let's say when the nos bottle is charged when warm. Heat causes expansion as recently witnessed with my hydaulic pump on my sc...
jibby
New Member
True at sea level there is more oxygen and I can feel the drop off in horsepower when I drive up in the mountains to ski from the thinner air the engine is sucking in....I always have to double check to see if the car is running correctly but then realise it is higher altitude that is the problem...
Pro
New Member
the power gain would be lost by the power used to drive the compressor. end of story.
and onto perpetual motion now - it is being worked on and it IS entirely possible.
a charged, oil filled, lightweight plastic eye shaped chamber is put inside another eye shaped chamber of another charged oil based fluid.
the fluid is +ve and the oil is +ve - therefore they repel each other and the chamber of oil is held off the chamber holding the fluid. at the end of the oil filled eye shaped chamber is another type of oil in a sectioned off chamber - HIGHLY charged and in sections like the core of an alternator.
outside the chamber of fluid is a series of coils - not unlike an alternator again.
the highly charged oil is spun by reversing the polarity of the "alternator" and moves the centre chamber into a rotating motion via magnetic energy. when the chamber is spinning fast enough the polarity is switched to normal and hey presto - one electric generator that relies on nothing to fuel itself to keep going.
it does - however - require energy to get moving in the first place.
and onto perpetual motion now - it is being worked on and it IS entirely possible.
a charged, oil filled, lightweight plastic eye shaped chamber is put inside another eye shaped chamber of another charged oil based fluid.
the fluid is +ve and the oil is +ve - therefore they repel each other and the chamber of oil is held off the chamber holding the fluid. at the end of the oil filled eye shaped chamber is another type of oil in a sectioned off chamber - HIGHLY charged and in sections like the core of an alternator.
outside the chamber of fluid is a series of coils - not unlike an alternator again.
the highly charged oil is spun by reversing the polarity of the "alternator" and moves the centre chamber into a rotating motion via magnetic energy. when the chamber is spinning fast enough the polarity is switched to normal and hey presto - one electric generator that relies on nothing to fuel itself to keep going.
it does - however - require energy to get moving in the first place.
MWP
New Member
Are you asking about intercooling or water-injection here?jibby said:
Intercooling is using a air-to-air or water-to-air heat exchanger to remove heat from intake air after a compressor, be it turbo or supercharger.
Water-injection is where you spray water into the intake air.
It decreases the intake air temperature (same principal as evaportave air-conditioning) and also helps keep the combustion chamber clean.
The water (or steam) goes out the exst pipe, so you need to refill with water every now and then.
Max recommended water to fuel ratio is 1:10.
Its useful on supercharged/turboed and NA engines.
Alcohol can also be added to the water to give an octane boost.
Special high pressure pumps (stainless steel) are needed as the water rusts out and siezes normal fuel pumps.
jibby
New Member
pro240- Interesting on the perpetual motion theory.....I agree I think it is possible...
MVP - I was asking both questions. I did not know that water or mist could be used for cooling the intake and also be ran thru the engine. I would think that would be like putting small amounts water in the gas tank.. This would not screw up the detonation in the combustion chamber of the engine *gas, oxygen, and mist/water? I know there is a method for this, I just can't comprehend it. Wow. I definetely need to learn and read up more about these types of cooling methods...(intercooling and water intake)
MVP - I was asking both questions. I did not know that water or mist could be used for cooling the intake and also be ran thru the engine. I would think that would be like putting small amounts water in the gas tank.. This would not screw up the detonation in the combustion chamber of the engine *gas, oxygen, and mist/water? I know there is a method for this, I just can't comprehend it. Wow. I definetely need to learn and read up more about these types of cooling methods...(intercooling and water intake)
water has a really high latent heat(the heat at which it fully vaporizes), so if you can inject it into the intake manifold in a fine spray, you can cool the intake charge alot and increase charge air desity and VE. apparently the steam created during the combustion cycle creats higher cylinder pressures and increases HP some more(to a point). in my opinion, denatured alcohol would work better because it still has a higher latent heat than gasoline(and cools the intake charge), and increases octane. theoretically, a water/alcohol mix would be the best, im thinking 30/70 respectively.
* Water injection doesn't lower the charge temperature itself. It lowers the temperature of any surface the water comes in contact with.
* Water injection does not reliably change EGT's. EGT's remain nearly constant.
* Water injection, as a basic rule of thumb, will drop the temp across the face of the combustion chamber on the head up to 25% depending on how much water you want to run - during peak power mixture ratios
* The steam does not help the process in any way other than helping to clean off carbon deposits
* Water injection does not create higher cylinder pressures. It LOWERS them when water is precent during the combustion process during air-mixture ratios between 16.666:1 & 11.111:1.
* Injecting water during rich fuel mixtures decreases power.
* The aditional mixture mass that by 11.765:1, fuel consumption itself increases & that grows the richer the mixture is
* Neither Ethyl, nor Methyl alcohol will effectively combust in a gasoline dominated enviornment. They simply waste oxygen that could be spent burning gasoline.
* Ethyl alcohol is better, because it has few of the drawbacks of Methyl alcohol, lowers the freezing point, and readily mixes with water, lowering the specific gravity and increasing atomization.
I'm huge really anal about water injection & much mis-information that surrounds it.
* Water injection does not reliably change EGT's. EGT's remain nearly constant.
* Water injection, as a basic rule of thumb, will drop the temp across the face of the combustion chamber on the head up to 25% depending on how much water you want to run - during peak power mixture ratios
* The steam does not help the process in any way other than helping to clean off carbon deposits
* Water injection does not create higher cylinder pressures. It LOWERS them when water is precent during the combustion process during air-mixture ratios between 16.666:1 & 11.111:1.
* Injecting water during rich fuel mixtures decreases power.
* The aditional mixture mass that by 11.765:1, fuel consumption itself increases & that grows the richer the mixture is
* Neither Ethyl, nor Methyl alcohol will effectively combust in a gasoline dominated enviornment. They simply waste oxygen that could be spent burning gasoline.
* Ethyl alcohol is better, because it has few of the drawbacks of Methyl alcohol, lowers the freezing point, and readily mixes with water, lowering the specific gravity and increasing atomization.
I'm huge really anal about water injection & much mis-information that surrounds it.
if gasoline can cool the intake charge(and it does, when injected correctly), then so does water AND Ethanol. as for the water lowering combustion chamber pressures, im not so sure. it may lower or raise, or it may do nothing. someone would have to do an experiment and record actual findings to prove it.Toysrme said:
Pro
New Member
WI keeps the material inside the combustion chamber cooler - which in turn makes the inlet charge a little cooler.
it works well in LEAN applications because it keeps the pistons from melting by cooling them - a leaner mixture is a more power than a richer mixture.
it also adds hydrogen and oxygen to the combustion process for a cleaner, fuller burn which equals more torque and subsequently more power.
it works well in LEAN applications because it keeps the pistons from melting by cooling them - a leaner mixture is a more power than a richer mixture.
it also adds hydrogen and oxygen to the combustion process for a cleaner, fuller burn which equals more torque and subsequently more power.
Bruce Crower has made an engine that is 6 cycle; it has a camshaft that runs at 3:1 to the crank, and during the extra power cycle that has been allowed, water is injected into the hot chamber, which expands and creates power in the process. i guess the engine runs way cooler as a result, along with better emmisions, gas mileage.
Nice, but not surprising, to see that a hot rodder will come up with this concept when there are buildings filled with engineers at each of the auto manufacturers.
You could use TECs to cool the intake charge, like these, mounted to the intake.
http://www.melcor.com/ultratec.html
Not so sure that the efficiency would work to your benefit though.
Nice, but not surprising, to see that a hot rodder will come up with this concept when there are buildings filled with engineers at each of the auto manufacturers.
You could use TECs to cool the intake charge, like these, mounted to the intake.
http://www.melcor.com/ultratec.html
Not so sure that the efficiency would work to your benefit though.
You don't have to. The papers dating back to the 1940's on water injection are easily available on the internet, along with several early tinkerers. The old data is much better than anything of today & honestly more relevant.
I've not reviewed a single "modern" paper, or person/company that talks about water injection without just repeating the same old boring crap, that has become both rhetorical, and nothing more than myths.
Exactly SCV8. A TEC's ability to transfer heat is pathetic in their efficiency. They also consume massive amounts of power in the process. It would be impossible to power, or cool TEC's on a car/engine application.
The closest thing I can think of would be cooling fuel lines, but you'd have to cool the majority of the line as the fuel flows by so fast & then you're still looking at tons of heat & electricity wasted for eh? A simple A/C system has many times more capacity & takes less power to run.
Against that idea, I use the same argument against intake manifold insulators... Keep in mind I made & sold quite a few of them too! LoL!
Sure, I was easily able to drop peak manifold temps by large chunks & keep it substantially cooler the longer the engines were run. The problem, is that it just doesn't really matter. I never got past anything but my g-tech pro comp, but I could show a few consistent whp gains with the cooler intake manifolds.
The problem was just that. A "few" whp. The air simply flows through the dang things so fast, it's really not being heated *that* much in the upper manifolds (Toyota v6).
I always apply that rule of thumb when I'm thinking about cooling airflow, gas (I admit freely that I have never done a project so ferocious it required the thought of needing to cool gas), transmission & oil lines.
pro240c
Water injection works under all conditions. It effectively riches the mixture many times what straight fuel would.
Completely untrue.
The water does not split into base hydrogen and oxygen atoms... It goes straight out the tail pipe as it turns to steam through the combustion & exhaust system itself.
*edited*
Adding a little bit & reproof read. I'd say it was atrocious before, but I probably couldn't spell that after midnight.
