Clutch Frustration!!! At wits end!!!

[hrforever]

Since completing my 1UZ/ W58 conversion some three years ago I have been frustrated by recurring clutch issues (squeaking and a sort of grinding and a loss of pedal smoothness). Different hydraulic throw out units, bearings and clutch/pressure plates have only resolved the issues for a short time, only to return.

The following pictures show the face of the domed thrust bearing on the Howe throw out as well as the wear marks on the fingers of the pressure plate (clutch/pressure plate only 1500km old).





As I see it there can only be a couple of things that could be causing these noises to keep recurring, one being the bearing is not centred properly or two the Howe unit is vibrating or wobbling (not detected during inspection).

My thoughts are that if the bearing were centred and rotating with the pressure plate, wear marks should not be evident after such a short period but if there is an alignment issue, other tell tale problems would be evident such as worn spiggot bush.

Because I'm running out of ideas, I have just bought a CRS bellhousing to trial and to get away from the existing adaptor plate, but because of exhaust proximity, I will have to stay with the Howe unit and not use an external slave. I'm running out of ideas as to whats going wrong and my ability to enjoy my drives is being eroded.

Anyone prepared to offer any suggestions?????????

 

[cribbj]

I know you were part of this initial discussion: http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12803

Have you tried the T56 TOB?

I'd expect 4U2Quik to log in and offer some gems of wisdom on this.

 

[hrforever]

Correct. At the time I believed the flat face of the Howe bearing may have been the answer, but it was not to be. The domed bearing also resulted in the same problem and as I have already tried a Tilton and Howe, I'm leaning away from the TOB being the issue (or I could be wrong, again)

Also, how much wear on the pressure plate fingers would be considered acceptable before it is unserviceable? Is there a hardened surface that can wear or does it just have to be reasonably flat and smooth? The clutch 'guru's' I've checked with locally just scratch their head and say replace it but with no real explanation.

 

[4U2QUIK]

ok, it sounds like you have the 2 major problems I ran into when I did my first adaptor plates.
One is that it sounds like you indeed do have an alignment issue. It's what causes the grinding sound.
The second, and probably bigger problem is the style of bearing you are using. The howe and the quartermaster Part number #721-100 are both designs that require a spacer be behind them that puts them so far out on the guide tube that they wobble like crazy when engaged. We actually cut out the bottom of the 1uz bellhousing and watched it happen while the vehicle was up on the dyno. So that's the squealing noise that you hear.

There are a couple of solutions we came up with. One is to adapt an oem gm throwout bearing from the t56. It has a stationary base, requires very little spacing to fit, lasts as long as any other oem setup if not longer, and it's dirt cheap ate under 90$ for a quality unit and 45$ for a china unit of you're lame like that.
The other option is this quartermaster unit that pushes from the face instead of the whole unit moving like the howe but I can remember the part # offhand.

 

[hrforever]

4U2QUIK, thanks for your input and I'm sort of glad I'm not alone!!

I also cut an inspection hole and have on occassion noticed the Howe unit move but always assumed it was meant to happen as the bearing would/should have found its centre and I have not read or heard of any of the issues you described on any forum. For the Tilton unit I had first, I put its non releasing problem down to the unit being overly sensetive after we failed 3 times to get it to work. Looking back now, I think the adaptor alignment may have been the issue (still have to compare the adaptor against the CRS bellhousing to ascertain if alignment is in fact a problem).

With the Howe unit I have noticed that when engaging the clutch when idling, no noise was evident but once under acceleration, it is was.

With regards the solutions, what about extending the guide tube on the gear box and making a solid spacer for the Howe unit to push against. This would get rid of the wobble. Or, if I go the T56 unit, how does it get mounted, as I have not seen pictures of one being mounted for used with the W58 and is the bearing suitable for the pressure plate?

I'm tired of pulling the gearbox so want it fixed for good.

 

[4U2QUIK]

http://www.1uzfeswapkit.com/T-56-Hydraulic-throwout-bearing-adaptor-plate-0000-0021.htm this is my t56 bearing setup that I sell.
you idea for the howe might work also, but I really dislike that style of bearing.

 

[samsdad]

4U2QUIK, thanks for your input and I'm sort of glad I'm not alone!!

I also cut an inspection hole and have on occassion noticed the Howe unit move but always assumed it was meant to happen as the bearing would/should have found its centre and I have not read or heard of any of the issues you described on any forum. For the Tilton unit I had first, I put its non releasing problem down to the unit being overly sensetive after we failed 3 times to get it to work. Looking back now, I think the adaptor alignment may have been the issue (still have to compare the adaptor against the CRS bellhousing to ascertain if alignment is in fact a problem).

With the Howe unit I have noticed that when engaging the clutch when idling, no noise was evident but once under acceleration, it is was.

With regards the solutions, what about extending the guide tube on the gear box and making a solid spacer for the Howe unit to push against. This would get rid of the wobble. Or, if I go the T56 unit, how does it get mounted, as I have not seen pictures of one being mounted for used with the W58 and is the bearing suitable for the pressure plate?

I'm tired of pulling the gearbox so want it fixed for good.

Been there done this but with the R-series in my Surf and my issues were not only the ones you are having but she'd rip the centre out of a clutch disc at whim often in the most of embaressing of places but forunately not while out for a play in the dirt. Tried extending the guide tube.. No difference. After much head scratching by myself and a friendly engineer it turned out that the adapterplate was the issue. So like you being rather sick of pulling the gearbox out on a regular basis (remember yours does not have a transfer case on the back of it) a Dellows/CRS bell was fitted and that was the first and last time I will ever do that. Your other issue is that using the adapter with the RWD box it gives you a bell the same height as the 4wd box which uses a longer input shaft

Permanent fix from later conversions is this.. I use the KSracing bell housing (eBay) from which you need to trim 30mm off the clutch slave pedestool, Use a VZN130 (V6 4runner) Slave cylinder, extreme perfomance flywheel, Hilux clutch fork pivot and boot. Jim @ Clutch Industries in WA has been nice enough to make up a kit for these so you'll need to contact him for the part nos (D40 pressure plate, Landcruiser clutch disc and release bearing) which gives you a nice factory feel and operation i.e reliability. Now you will either need to use the spigot extension and bearing that comes with the bell or make up a sintered bronze spigot bush to suit. The other option is to rebuild the gearbox using the input shaft from the W58 Hilux box. The spend should be in the region of $1500AUD and I hope that this helps as it keeps any future replacment parts needed as an "Over the counter buy". BTW the lifespan of the Dellows/CRS stuff seems to be around 35km

 

[hrforever]

Well, I've bitten the bullet and am going to give this one last go. I've bought a CRS bellhousing, new clutch/pressure plate, spigot bearing and thrust bearing. I am going to reuse the Howe but I've extended the input 'collar' by 20mm to help with any movement and also remade the spacer at the rear of the Howe unit so I use only 2 or 3 of the conical spacers. The spacer also has conical face to help things align.

One thing I did notice when everything was cleaned and inspected was that the inside of the Howe unit did show a wear mark on one side only which might suggest the unit wasn't centred. Anyway, I don't think there's any more I can do but put it back together and see what happens over time.

 

[samsdad]

I can tell you exactly what will happen...

It will be great for the first 25K then do the same thing all over again or give you an "indecisive clutch". I'm of two minds of whether to throw an auto in (which means a re-wire yet much more pleasant in traffic and much nicer in sand) or try to sneak the $$ past the wife and fit what we are fitting to clients vehicles now. Either way I'm going to have to pull the box which unlike yours has a transfer case on the back of it

 

[hrforever]

Ok, this is for anyone who has suffered clutch issues like I have. Its now been 4 months since I put my 'last go' plan into effect and the word is, so far so good.

After some 2000km and an inspection today, there's no sign of any wear or 'rust dust' that has been evident with previous clutchs. I'm therefore concluding my earlier assumption was correct that the adaptor was out and everything is now aligned correctly.

Will keep the fingers crossed for the future.

 

[TheoM]

Landcruiser clutch disc and release bearing)

Do know what model cruiser ? I have a BJ 42 LX with the 3b mated to a H55F 5 sp into which the VVT-I will be going. I have given up trying to search for the model code of the elusive "HD Hilux clutch" mentioned everywhere

 

[samsdad]

H series? Be Gentle with it... The H was in 80 or 100 series so use the clutch to suit and get the flywheel that you are going to use drilled to suit. With the extreme performance flywheels I'm using an exceedy supertuff R32 or D40 clutch cover with 80 series 10 inch clutch disc and release bearing. The "elusive Hilux clutch" is here http://catalogue.clutchindustries.com.au/product/view/100353/RPM1134N-SSCC

Or you can look at the 4terrain clutches for lux or cruiser. Cost between them is equivalent for Perth so given that there are daily flights to Jberg from here I can't see a lot of difference in price but freight may be the problem. As a guide and I'll put this in USD the way that I'm setting them up which keeps things as close to "Stock Toyota" as you can go allow a budget of $1600USD, Now that's bell, flywheel and clutch. The time that you will spend stuffing around to make it all work in a satisfactory manner depends on if you have access to a hoist or not but allow a day. The Dellows stuff in a 4bie seems to last 30k before troubles occur and by that I mean a "Sometimes clutch" sometimes it does what it should and sometimes it doesn't. Last one I set up with the KS bell and this clutch configuration has now done 40k and I can't work out how. Guy is a FIFO worker (2 and 1) and when he's home he won't get out of the bloody thing. Might hae something to do with the fact that all his mates steal it while he's away.. "Can ya build me one?". Yep no problem and to quote Stewie "Where's the my money Brian? Show me the money!!"

 

[TheoM]

Thanks for the info - much appreciated !

H series? Be Gentle with it...

Why do you say this ? I thought these old cruiser boxes are supposed to be much tougher than the new R series NA diesel cruiser and Lux boxes ?