Stand Alone Vs. Piggy Backs

[Lextreme II]

Hey Gang,

I have been doing lots of research on stand alone and the price is just too high and too complex for the average end user. The question we need to ask is why do we need stand alone? There are many answers to that question. One of the most important answer would be able to control huge injectors for huge boost and especially important during idle.

Here is what i got. Stand alone range from 2k to 4k (complete) and possible 1-1.5k for installation and tuning. I dont know about you guys, that is a lot of money.

So, what is the solution if you want high boost and dont want to about 5K on the electronics? Here is my solution and its my plan. Split Second piggy back can control both fuel and timing. This unit also can incorperate an external MAP sensor that will allow boost up to 32 psi. With 32 psi in mind, those poor 550 cc injectors will not have enough juice to support the potential huge hp from the boost. Split Second also made an extra injector controller that will allow up to 4 individual injectors.

For example, if i run 8 550 cc with the piggyback and run 4 1000cc with the extra injector controller. The total of cc will be 8400 cc and it means about 1050 cc each. With 1050 cc/min (each cylinder) it should able to support huge hp for you crazy guys out there.

From my personal experience and i am not endorsing anyone. The R4 program can be learn in few clicks and the wiring is very simple. The cost of the equipment is as follow:
1. FTC1: $500
2. Injector Controller: $350
3. 3 Bar Map Sensor: $60
4. Extra Injector Clip: $240
5. Installation: Self
6. Tuning: Self

The total about is about $1150 and capable of controlling 8400 cc/min. What do u think?

Below are two map tables of my setup. The first partial map is for the Fuel and the second partial map is for timing.

 

[Zuffen]

David,

Can you give us more information on what is involved in fitting/wiring the system up plus how hard is it to tune once on a dyno.

Can the average dyno jockey work the programmes?

Some photos of the equipment would be excellent.

 

[Lextreme II]

Rod,

I am glade u ask that question. The piggyback have about 6-7 wires and i am not exactly sure about the injector control. I would say about 5-7 wires. That is all of the hardware.

As far as programming. I have few base line already. For example, i have 390 cc and 550 cc right now and ready to be fired. This is what i did. I use the base 390 setting and take the precentage of increase from 390cc. From 390 cc to 550cc is about 29.1% increase. So, for the 550cc program, i reduce 29.1% and its perfect. I believe the split second unit can controll max at 550.

From the base line, we can go up or down based on the 390 cc. That will give u a ball park area and fine tuning is be required. Here are some pictures:

Fuel/Timing Calibrator:

Extra Injectors Controller:

Model AIC1-G4H controls 4 high impedance injectors
Extra Injectors Controller Wiring Diagrams

Here is something that you can use for the extra injectors.

You can read more about the R4 Software

Another piece of equipment is recommended but not require. The Innovative LM-1 will alllow you to detect the AFR with few extra goodies, you can read rpm too. What does it mean? It means u can analog the data from street driving and view it in your laptop. If you have extra money u can get a GM 3 BAR Map sensor and allows u to record boost at a give AFR and RPM. U can analysis AFR, rpm and boost. Therefore u can tune the whole car with out spending hundreds in dyno shop with better AFR and save too.

Here is your tuning tools:
1. Innovative LM-1 $350 (we sell them in our site, not sure the price but aroud there)
2. RPM Signal converter: $70
3. 3 Bar Map sensor: $60

For about $500, you can tune your car to a dine. However, with the above unit, you can help your friend tune their cars and make some extra money.

Extra injectors controller comes in 4 versions.

High Impedance:
2 injectors
4 injectors

Low Impedance:
2 injectors
4 injectors

Of course you gotta go to the lextreme. The below picture is the 550 cc i will be running pretty soon. Its just a baseline reduction of 29.1% from the 390cc map. If you compare the two fuel maps (MAP A) they are completely reduced. All I did was select all data like excel and click Percentage Change Icon and BAMM!. That is it. Every single cell change accordingly. Its that simple. Pretty easy dont u think?

Here ae the drawbacks with this system:
1. Unable to be to tune or change of tuning at the fly. You have tune the engine to accessory in order to upload the programs.
2. Unable to alter rpm cut off
3. FTC1 Max out at 550 cc

 

[Eleve_Niveau]

I have just been hit with this exact problem.
I want to run twin turbo's but have been told the afm will max out straight away.
I do not particullaly want to buy an aftermarket ecu because of price and auto transmission control.
Are these systems available is Australia?
Is it going to be usable for someone(me) who has no idea about this sort of thing??

 

[Lextreme II]

Its cake walk. Since u r a member of this forum. I can send you the basic setup. Just tell me what u have and can program it for you and email you with the attached file. From there you can find tune it more.

Once again, i have no financial interest with Split Second. I just think its a great unit and my members should know about it. Even I pay full price on those unit. lol... Please contact Mark at SS and tell him u r from this site and perhaps give u some break.

 

[Damien]

Hi David, I've seen you lurking around the ALSC forum and thought I'd check out yours So will the Split Second let you ditch the AFM entirely and just run from a MAP sensor?

 

[Lextreme II]

Yes, you can get a unit that will use GM 3 Bar Map sensor.

 

[SCV8]

Those guys are pretty good; they custom made me controller for a setup that literally no one else made.
That sounds to me like the most adjustment for the $ by far, especially with the software. Heck, Unichip wants another grand or so for the ability to control their unit yourself, on top of the price of the actual computer itself($800).
You should ask to see if they can make you a signal clamp for the rpm signal wire to the stock ecu so we can ditch the rev limiter effect, you could then apply your own rev limiter with their system.

 

[gloverman]

Just a couple of questions.
How does this system take into account the self learning abilities of the standard ecu? With some piggy back systems the standard ECU has enough self learning capilities to completely override the piggy back system. I have experience with a Apex-i power FC on a Lexus LS200/Altessa where the standard ECU will relearn within about a week. This was a standard engine though. With a Turboed engine the extra fuel is added along with extra air to try to maintain the correct air flow ratio but the self learning abilities are still there.
With this system can the ignition timing be retarded from what the standard ecu is at? or does it rely on the standard knock sensors to do this?. This will be neccessary to control detonation at high boost, especially on a non decompressed engine. I just bolted a turbo onto a standard 3litre VL commodore with a link computer and at 6psi the timing is 10degrees retarded from the base timing setting.
If you remove the AFM are you replacing that signal with a modified signal from this unit? As the AFM is a primary signal to determine injector duration the standard ecu will need some kind of signal as with any piggy back system the standard ECU still needs to function correctly or at least close to normal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely negetive about this system. These questions are to gain greater knowledge and understanding of the system. Also great to list the downsides of the system. I wish all manufacturer would list them. Decisions would be easier if you could compare good and bad features.

It is interesting that you list aftermarket ECUs as expensive and complicated.
I have fitted Links and Microtechs from scratch. Rewired a very old Haltech without any diagrams and tuned all three along with a Wolf 3D. All are OK and with a Basic LEM(Link engine management) starting at about $1200+gst It doesn't seem to expensive. The link will most likely be my choice of management when I fit my motor early 2005. I will wire it myself and tune it myself. If you can read and have some automotive experience then wiring it will be no problem.
As with tuning the result of tuning a aftermarket stand alone system and a piggy back sytem will both be the same if you get it wrong - the engine will go BANG.
I think when choosing a system it is more important to work out what you want to acheive. If the engine is standard and the standard wiring is there them use that, especially if standard transmission is to be used. If some basic modifications are being done then an aftermarket system may offer further improvements. Most Dyno tests with conversions using aftermarket ECUs generally have more power than standard ECUs. We must remember that the may but horrible to drive and not as smooth as the standard system. I believe if serious mods are being done then a more upmarket ECU would be the best choice.

Something to think about

Cheers

 

[Damien]

I emailed the Split Second guys about converting from an AFM-based setup to a MAP-based setup and they said thay don't support that with the FTC1... has anyone tried doing this with the Split Second unit or only with stand-alones?

 

[Lextreme II]

Ask for Mark and tell him specifically what u want. They can make custom units for you.

 

[Damien]

Cool - thanks for that.

 

[erikbang]

FTC1...?

Hey David...have you had a chance to use the ftc 1 with you 550cc injectors yet? I was seriously considering this unit but was concerned about its ability to run the 550s at idle and tune-a-bility. I used to have the arc2 on my stealth tt and had made tons of power with it. I know that the ftc has a lot more resolution vs the arc2. I also was curious about the haltech fx10 or 11v2...if you have any thoughts on that.

Erik

 

[cjsupra90]

A couple of things to point out here first off, fuel doesn't flow the same as air and extra injectors dont always offer good fuel distrabution to the cylinders. The further they are from the cylinders, the more likely hood that the fuel will start dropping out of suspension. Large droplets of fuel do not burn correctly thus detonation is more likely. This is why you dont see professional race engine that need that much extra fuel running them, they run a staged injection setup with 2 (sometimes more) injectors in for each cylinder.

The second is another added benifit with a stand alone is control of ignition or in some piggy back that have ignition control, the stand alone offers better more precise control of the ignition.

A third thing is more a question, If your going to spend the money to build a motor to produce that much power thus requiering that much fuel, then why would you skimp on engine management?????? Thats like building a race car and running street tires on it in a race and expecting to win...

The age only statement applies here perfectly, "Speed costs money! How fast do you really want to go?" Although, I think the saying should be "Speed costs money! How fast can you afford to go?"

 

[erikbang]

Chris...I think you are very right about the stand alone being able to control fuel and timing more adequate. My issues lie with: I'd like to be able to keep my factory ecu intact because it controls windows, alarm, electronic transmission...all that jazz. By no means do want to skimp on engine control, I know that can piss a guy off if his car does not want to idle at the stop light or worse yet get a lean condition under boost.

Do you have any ideas???

I have an 01 lexus gs 430...so if anyone has some input with this application I'd love to hear about it. As of right now i'm in the process of putting together an ati p1sc on the car, only looking for 7-8lbs of boost.

 

[cjsupra90]

Honestly, being that you want all that to remain and especially being that you have VVTi, I would just do some basic bolt ons and be happy with it. Remember, VVTi engines dont like much boost at all before they give up do to changes that toyota made to reduce rotating mass and make for a better performing engine worth having the VVTi.

The other problem that arises being that you have VVTi is that tuning will be almost impossible to get right for a piggy back or EIC cause of the way that the VVTi opperates. The piggy back and or EIC has no way of knowing what the ECU is doing with the VVTi and thus your liable to tune it one day under XX conditions, but then a few days later you at the same boost and same RPM and the tuning is off cause of the fact that the ECU might have the VVTi at a different position then it was when the system was originally tuned and thus the MAF (Mass Air Flow) is different. The only way that the piggy back or can calculate fuel is based off of RPM and MAP and this doesn't truely calculate MAF and MAF is what is the key factor.

This is also a down fall to EIC's on any engine VVTi or not. Unless you use a IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor, they can not accurately metter fuel at all times and need to be retuned from time to time through out the year especially if you live is a area with drastic climate change. Because air temp is a key factor in MAF, as the air temp changes so does the fuel requierments for the same RPM and PSI. Basically if you tune in the Summer, it will be lean in the winter cause the air is more dense and thus the MAF goes up and therefor power yet and PSI stays the same. The opposite is the case if you tune in the winter then summer comes around and now you are too rich cause MAF has dropped due to the higher air temps and thus lower density. This is amplified even more if your in a climate like I am here in West Central Florida where in the fall and winter, it can be 75 to 80*F during the day and yet drop to the 40's at night so the engine's fuel requierments change quite noticably during the same day of driving due to this noticable temp change.....

All in all, you end up with a system that once you get it right, before long its not right and you have to retune.... Not fun if you ask me.

If you ask me, its not worth it when there is a chance that your gonna run lean one day because you had a cold front come through the night before or something and thus air density has jumped up noticably and you detonate on an engine that is already not very tollerant to detonation.

All I can say is dont try to make a lot of power on an engine that is fragil to begin with if you not willing to spend the money and do it right.

With a bit of work and reasearch, you could leave the factory ECU to control all the other functions and have a stand alone to control the engine. Just like any other computer system, there is always a work around.....

 

[erikbang]

I had spoke with Mo at SRT and he mentioned that they are taking the haltech fx10 or e11v2 and taking out the ecu's control for timing and fueling. They only recomended that unit but I never asked about the transmission.

There is this guy that has an old lms kit on his sc430:

http://www.procharger.com/gallery/showtemp.php?market=5&idx=1411

He was very happy with the kit and he has no aftermarket fuel management. He is running 5lbs with intercooler...

What experience do you have with stand alones? Do you have any preference? Favs? All you feed back is good>? I do understand your point about the 3uz being delicate but he honestly is doing what he shouldn't be able to do.

 

[cjsupra90]

I had spoke with Mo at SRT and he mentioned that they are taking the haltech fx10 or e11v2 and taking out the ecu's control for timing and fueling. They only recomended that unit but I never asked about the transmission.

There is this guy that has an old lms kit on his sc430:

http://www.procharger.com/gallery/showtemp.php?market=5&idx=1411

He was very happy with the kit and he has no aftermarket fuel management. He is running 5lbs with intercooler...

What experience do you have with stand alones? Do you have any preference? Favs? All you feed back is good>? I do understand your point about the 3uz being delicate but he honestly is doing what he shouldn't be able to do.

First thing, I see as a problem with that SC430 in the link is that the HP numbers are incorrect. 220RWHP is feasable for a stock SC430. Adding 5psi is not going to bring you to 366RWHP. 5psi is eccentially roughly 35% increase in air flow and thus would rough equate to a 35% increase in power. So 220RWHP with 5psi would equate to roughly 297RWHP, not 366RWHP. It would take roughly 10psi (which is about 68% air flow increase) to bring 220RWHP to the quoted 366RWHP. My guess is that the dyno run with the supercharger was either facked or is using SAE correction. SAE corrections always elivate HP numbers higher then they really are on forced induction engines. SAE correction factors are not sopposed to be applied to forced induction engines yet dyno operators often do cause its going to show higher numbers but still they are false numbers. This is something that is done quite often to promote sales (more HP = more sales volume).

5psi is cocidered pretty low boost, anything below 7psi is concidered low boost for starters. I dont know and kinda doubt that there was nothing done to the fuel management. I dont see that being possible unless the system was so pig rich that the boost brought the AFR closer to what is should be. Probably had a Rising Rate FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) of something. Im not saying that he is not doing it as you stated but it is doubtfull.

As for Stand alones, I have worked with several different ones on the market and honestly they are all good units. They all pretty much control the engine just as they should. It boils down to the added features that the different ones have and the unit is only as good as the programmer is in his or her knowledge of it operation. I dont really have one that I prefer over any others.

 

[erikbang]

I made an error...and now feel dumb having to say this... He actually is using an lms i-manage with an extra pump. Fairly vague, and I don't know much about this unit. He said he has about 25k on it now. Now I do like the fact that you are really crunching the numbers on his setup

I wish you had a definitive answer w.r.t the stand alone...I like...but I see where you are coming from.

 

[cjsupra90]

I made an error...and now feel dumb having to say this... He actually is using an lms i-manage with an extra pump. Fairly vague, and I don't know much about this unit. He said he has about 25k on it now. Now I do like the fact that you are really crunching the numbers on his setup

I wish you had a definitive answer w.r.t the stand alone...I like...but I see where you are coming from.

I had a feeling that there was more to the car that what was stated. I still doubt that he is truely making as much power as whats stated. An easy way to tell is if he knows the weight of the car and what its speed or time is in a quarter mile. There are mathmatical calculation to figure out engine power if you know the weight and E.T. or MPH in a 1/4 mile run and they are proven time and time again to be accurate when compaired to engine dyno pulls. Another subject all together is that chassis dyno's are only truely good for tuning and that is about it. There are to many factors that come into play that can have an effect on the power at the wheels when the true engine power did not change. Chassis dyno's were originally invented for diagnostic and tuning purposes but because they show power production, they became a thing for people to use to find out the power that thier car, bike or whatever is producing, but again, they are not always accurate. Just some food for thought.

I personally use SDS EFI units as they are cheap and get the job done and have had great reliability with them. The first one that I bought was back in 97 and with several changes that I have made with it that requiered changing components on the board myself and what not, I have never had any issues with it at all. Yes there are some down falls to thier units in features that they dont have but they still work great and like I said, get the job done. Its to hard to really say one is better then the other. It all boils down to the name and how much your willing to pay if you have a particular name that you want.
The other thing is that just because a particular unit was intended a particular engine/car, doesn't mean that its stuck to only that engine/car. Like the fact that the AEM unit for the supra can be made to work on a Lexus V8. Another example is one that I did about a year ago, and that was running a Hondata S300 on a custom built turbocharged Mazda Miata. Along with everyone else, Hondata said it would not work, yet the car ran flawlessly and made great power for the 3 or 4 months that the car was driving before it was totalled. A local company here laughed when they heard what I was doing when I went there to get a few parts that were needed to finish the setup. The were very stern in saying that it would not work and I was wasting my time trying. Boy were they shocked when we drove the car there and ran it on thier dyno. Needless to say, they wanted to know how I did it but I wouldn't tell them cause they wanted to doubt me that it could be done. I was actually toying with using two of them on a 1uz the only problem is that tuning two at the same time would be difficult but still possible. And they are pretty cheap. All future 4 cylinder project that I do that need stand alone will use the Hondata unit as the tuning program is easy to use and they offer a lot of features for a pretty cheap price and the reliability seems to be great.