First time post to this forum, but I come from the DSM background. I am selling my 99 GSX for about 10-12k and I have found this 95 SC400 that im trying to buy at this dealership my friend works at for about $3000..It has a blown engine. I think it blew a headgasket and bent a valve..But which will I have a better chance doing so..Doing a single turbo on the v8 engine or should I do a 2JZ swap? Which one has more potential and would be easier to work with? What will be involved into swaping the 2JZ in the 400, is it any difference than a SC300?
Single Turbo SC400 or 2JZ??
- Thread starter sc400t
- Start date
The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
1UZFE would be easier to SC than turbo
also, I reckon the 2JZ would actually do more torque than the 1UZ, if both are doing the same power, as the 2JZ is a torque monster...
you could buy a halfcut Aristo with a 2JZGTE, complete with everything, for around $AU4000...
or, you could replace the 1UZFE for about $1000, then spend the other $3000 super/turbo charging it, etc, and end up with the same amount of power, with very little possibility for power increases without having to rebuild the engine stronger...
Personally, I wish my LS400 had a 2JZ, if it did, I wouldn't be selling it for an Aristo...
OR!!! cheaper than the 2JZ would be a 1JZ, which would still have alot of potential...
but, easiest *cough* laziest *cough* would be just replacing the 1UZ
2JZGTE makes 206kw @ 5600rpm and 431nM @ 3600rpm
1UZFE makes 191km @ 5400rpm and 353nM @ 4600rpm
i cant imagine a 1UZ performing much better than a 2JZ even if it was doing the same power...
stock for stock, the 2JZ makes its torque down lower, which is whats going to matter for a heavier car...
sure, SC the 1UZ and I can see it being better down low, but I dunno about turboing it...
LOL buying a half cut is way less than half the job...add another 1K at least and that's doing the job yourself and using the JZ ECU.
Turbo UZ kills a turbo JZ for torque, been there seen that dozens of times ....no replacement for displacement dude, simple maths. Not dissing the JZ, love that motor but my UZ is making 400rwkw on stock internals so it's not lightweight when you put them head to head.
Comes down to what the guy wants but until you top 550hp flywheel as a daily driver then the UZ wins this one.
it also depends on the bore and stroke... the 2JZ has a longer stroke, meaning, if both engines are doing the same KW (assuming this would be achieved by higher boost on the JZ than the 1UZ) chances are, the 2JZ is going to have more torque.
And I'm just saying it to state it because noone else has yet. An SC/GS 400 is a nicer ride than an SC/GS 300.
The price premium is not alot. They have better starting secondary components. The starting trim is alittle better. The economy is identical to start with, the v8 smokes the living crap out of the 2jz-ge...
Lord for that matter the 2jz-ge's are woefully slow. Slower than the v6 Camry, or the equivilant Maxima platform N/A... Sorta sad. LoL! Maxima's smoke them.
And "2jz's making their torque down lower", Is a completely incorrect statement.
To start with the JZ blocks have a very poor accelleration rate compaired to others due to the very, very high reciprocating mass of that inline design. The counterweights on the crankshaft make the thing a boat anchor.
It doesn't matter what the low end power of those inline 6 's are. The simple fact is that it could be a mountian, but the power VS elapsed time is so much slower it doesn't make up for it.
RPM * Power dyno's are not the be all-end all of how an engine's output matters. In reality, it's only 1/3 of an equation. Elapsed time * power, and speed (final gearing) * power. It's a trifecta, and while all are very related, they are not the same things. Each 1/3 is as critical as the next.
Take a z06, put a 27lb lighter flywheel / pressure plate on the engine. It dyno's about 10 wheel horsepower. Big ****.
Now run that dyno as elapsed time * power output & guess what? The lighter version makes the same output varrying between 1 & 2 seconds earlier in the first 1/2 of the powerband, and on the second half it's almost always 2 seconds earlier.
See, that kind of stuff is important!
Even if the weights tallied to be the exact same, you're getting that many more power pulses per revolution at the same power output. Its still going to accellerate faster on the v8.
Compair that to what the early 1uz-fe's make. Then drop the 2jz-gte's off boost power like a brick from a lack of compression & worse cams.
Now the age old "there's a replacement for displacement - forced induction" saying has a major clause.
Once you have to give up the correctly sized *for OEM output* turbo<s>, for larger, less responcive ones. The powerband begins to shrink at a large rate. Suggenly engines that previously had wide powerbands, begin to look like a Honda engine. Just without the gearing to make a Honda engine fast. (Bypass the portions of the powerband you don't use.)
At which point. The larger displacement engine that is not yet struggling to spool a turbine in the first 1/2 of the entire powerband. Is going to stomp all over the dead body of the smaller engine with the larger turbine.
Look at it like this. We're having an explosion of 3s-gte owners jump ship to the v6's on the MR2 platforms.
The simple fact is that the aroundish 200hp/ft-lb N/A v6's walk all over the 230hp/240ft-lb ish 3s-gte's. Even tho the 3s-gte's rpm * power out dyno much better.
350bhp 3s-gte's are no match for measily 240-260hp v6's on a drag strip, and are an insane mis-match on a road racing circuit. I know... I helped build one & we ran it against a stock C5 vette, and a 350bhp 3s-gte MR2 LoL!
The vette was easily lapped, the other MR2 was run away from.
Here's where I'm going with this:
3s-gte = better output on paper than say a 3vz-fe/1mz-fe
3s-gte completely BPU'ed >100bhp to keep up with just the tiny, weak powerband TRD blower.
3s-gte re-turbo'd takes >150bhp of a peak power advantage to outrun a mild turbo (350-550) 3vz-fe.
3s-gte is facing a 33% displacement penalty.
Guess what the 2jz's are facing against a base 1uz-fe? That's right. A 33% displacement advantage, the same compression & cam penalties...
When you put that single turbo on that 2jz-gte and give up all hopes of a descent powerband on the bottom half of your entire rpm range. And remember what I said about reciprocating weight. Drive a Toyota v6 truck, or car. Drive an SC/GS 300 of that period. (OMG GS300's are slow!), then drive an LS/SC400.
The inline 6 accellerates slowly compaired to the v engines. Blame reciprocating weight against the v6, blame more pulses & more power on the v8. But it does spin up slower. It is very obvious when you drive them. That's not the best for driving a larger turbine in a race against our example 1uz-fe either.
Realize that a 1uz-fe can use a smaller, more responcive turbo to make the same peak power. The more displacement you ahve to work with, the less work you need from the same compressor to make the same power. Make the same peak power. And have twice your entire powerband in the process
Powerband > peak power....
Atleast unless you go using 5,000rpm torque convertors.
JamesN
New Member
Welcome to the club. Swaping the 2jz into the SC400 is a little more complicated then the sc300 and require a bit more money. But it is doable and the result is the same as any swap SC. As for turbo the V8 it is a great idea if you have a low milage or good engine to play with and it is cheaper if you know what you are doing and do some of the stuff yourself.
I have a 2jz swap 95 SC4 and I love it. Reason I swapped is I also have the LS. Otherwise I would have not swap my SC. I recommed you think about your budget and go on from there.
I have a 2jz swap 95 SC4 and I love it. Reason I swapped is I also have the LS. Otherwise I would have not swap my SC. I recommed you think about your budget and go on from there.
stevechumo
Active Member
Getting a SC400 (1UZ) engine and turbocharge or supercharge it. Supercharging it is easier than turbocharging it. Some members here have already successfully supercharging or turbocharging the SC400. I'm currently in the process of building a turbo system for my SC400.
Lextreme II
Active Member
Blown SC400? That is the one I have been looking for. Since the motor is blown, its much better to build it up from the bottom and FI it. You will have a lot more fun with the V8.
Lextreme II
Active Member
Richwood Technology. Please contact Andrew for pricing and details. http://www.richwoodaero.com/ However, please keep this thread on topic.
Attachments
Death By Bass
New Member
2JZGTE...
alot more potential for less money.
stock engine will happily do 700+rwhp I do believe.
plus, alot more aftermarket parts available, for cheaper
alot more potential for less money.
stock engine will happily do 700+rwhp I do believe.
plus, alot more aftermarket parts available, for cheaper
JustenGT8
New Member
Not always Dead Bass my friend If the car is already V8 then a replacement stocker is cheap as chips whereas a 2J is not. Then you have the hassle of the conversion which is not insignificant as indicated earlier.
A single turbo UZ is fairly easy to do and the stock engine will take 400+rwhp all day long. So if you aren't after 700rwhp then the UZ is a very good option and trust me, the turbo torque from 4 litres is every bit the 33% better you would expect than the 3 litre JZ.
Love the TooJay but a turbo UZ definitely has it's place when chasing cheap performance.
If the car is already V8 then a replacement stocker is cheap as chips whereas a 2J is not. Then you have the hassle of the conversion which is not insignificant as indicated earlier.A single turbo UZ is fairly easy to do and the stock engine will take 400+rwhp all day long. So if you aren't after 700rwhp then the UZ is a very good option and trust me, the turbo torque from 4 litres is every bit the 33% better you would expect than the 3 litre JZ.
Love the TooJay but a turbo UZ definitely has it's place when chasing cheap performance.
Death By Bass
New Member
Not always Dead Bass my friend
A single turbo UZ is fairly easy to do and the stock engine will take 400+rwhp all day long. So if you aren't after 700rwhp then the UZ is a very good option and trust me, the turbo torque from 4 litres is every bit the 33% better you would expect than the 3 litre JZ.
Love the TooJay but a turbo UZ definitely has it's place when chasing cheap performance.
1UZFE would be easier to SC than turbo
also, I reckon the 2JZ would actually do more torque than the 1UZ, if both are doing the same power, as the 2JZ is a torque monster...
you could buy a halfcut Aristo with a 2JZGTE, complete with everything, for around $AU4000...
or, you could replace the 1UZFE for about $1000, then spend the other $3000 super/turbo charging it, etc, and end up with the same amount of power, with very little possibility for power increases without having to rebuild the engine stronger...
Personally, I wish my LS400 had a 2JZ, if it did, I wouldn't be selling it for an Aristo...
OR!!! cheaper than the 2JZ would be a 1JZ, which would still have alot of potential...
but, easiest *cough* laziest *cough* would be just replacing the 1UZ
The 2JZ is a potent motor once it's on boost, but its low end sux. It's tough enough to get a MKIV Supra launched with one, I can't imagine trying to get a heavier Lexus going.
This is why a number of us with Supras are pulling our 2JZ's and going the 1UZ route.
In certain cases, there "is" no substitute for cubic inches.....
This is why a number of us with Supras are pulling our 2JZ's and going the 1UZ route.
In certain cases, there "is" no substitute for cubic inches.....
Death By Bass
New Member
2JZGTE makes 206kw @ 5600rpm and 431nM @ 3600rpm
1UZFE makes 191km @ 5400rpm and 353nM @ 4600rpm
i cant imagine a 1UZ performing much better than a 2JZ even if it was doing the same power...
stock for stock, the 2JZ makes its torque down lower, which is whats going to matter for a heavier car...
sure, SC the 1UZ and I can see it being better down low, but I dunno about turboing it...
JustenGT8
New Member
1UZFE would be easier to SC than turbo
also, I reckon the 2JZ would actually do more torque than the 1UZ, if both are doing the same power, as the 2JZ is a torque monster...
you could buy a halfcut Aristo with a 2JZGTE, complete with everything, for around $AU4000...
or, you could replace the 1UZFE for about $1000, then spend the other $3000 super/turbo charging it, etc, and end up with the same amount of power, with very little possibility for power increases without having to rebuild the engine stronger...
Personally, I wish my LS400 had a 2JZ, if it did, I wouldn't be selling it for an Aristo...
OR!!! cheaper than the 2JZ would be a 1JZ, which would still have alot of potential...
but, easiest *cough* laziest *cough* would be just replacing the 1UZ
LOL buying a half cut is way less than half the job...add another 1K at least and that's doing the job yourself and using the JZ ECU.
Turbo UZ kills a turbo JZ for torque, been there seen that dozens of times ....no replacement for displacement dude, simple maths. Not dissing the JZ, love that motor but my UZ is making 400rwkw on stock internals so it's not lightweight when you put them head to head.
Comes down to what the guy wants but until you top 550hp flywheel as a daily driver then the UZ wins this one.
Death By Bass
New Member
it also depends on the bore and stroke... the 2JZ has a longer stroke, meaning, if both engines are doing the same KW (assuming this would be achieved by higher boost on the JZ than the 1UZ) chances are, the 2JZ is going to have more torque.
Attachments
JustenGT8
New Member
The JZ is a 'square' engine with 85mm (?) bore and stroke so a good compromise between revs and bottom end torque. The 'oversquare' UZ should be more of a revver but the cams are definitely set up for silky smooth torque production. Either way the 3% increase in stroke for the JZ isn't gonna be enough to make up for the extra 33% capacity of the UZ
No that it really impacts on this build but the UZ is also shorter and lighter than the JZ so will give a significant handling improvement too.
No that it really impacts on this build but the UZ is also shorter and lighter than the JZ so will give a significant handling improvement too.
The 1uz-fe will have 50% more powerband. Cost signifigantly less in the US to do than a 2jz swap would ever begin to swap for. With a blower, or turbo would STILL weigh less.
And I'm just saying it to state it because noone else has yet. An SC/GS 400 is a nicer ride than an SC/GS 300.
The price premium is not alot. They have better starting secondary components. The starting trim is alittle better. The economy is identical to start with, the v8 smokes the living crap out of the 2jz-ge...
Lord for that matter the 2jz-ge's are woefully slow. Slower than the v6 Camry, or the equivilant Maxima platform N/A... Sorta sad. LoL! Maxima's smoke them.
And "2jz's making their torque down lower", Is a completely incorrect statement.
To start with the JZ blocks have a very poor accelleration rate compaired to others due to the very, very high reciprocating mass of that inline design. The counterweights on the crankshaft make the thing a boat anchor.
It doesn't matter what the low end power of those inline 6 's are. The simple fact is that it could be a mountian, but the power VS elapsed time is so much slower it doesn't make up for it.
RPM * Power dyno's are not the be all-end all of how an engine's output matters. In reality, it's only 1/3 of an equation. Elapsed time * power, and speed (final gearing) * power. It's a trifecta, and while all are very related, they are not the same things. Each 1/3 is as critical as the next.
Take a z06, put a 27lb lighter flywheel / pressure plate on the engine. It dyno's about 10 wheel horsepower. Big ****.
Now run that dyno as elapsed time * power output & guess what? The lighter version makes the same output varrying between 1 & 2 seconds earlier in the first 1/2 of the powerband, and on the second half it's almost always 2 seconds earlier.
See, that kind of stuff is important!
Even if the weights tallied to be the exact same, you're getting that many more power pulses per revolution at the same power output. Its still going to accellerate faster on the v8.
Compair that to what the early 1uz-fe's make. Then drop the 2jz-gte's off boost power like a brick from a lack of compression & worse cams.
Now the age old "there's a replacement for displacement - forced induction" saying has a major clause.
Once you have to give up the correctly sized *for OEM output* turbo<s>, for larger, less responcive ones. The powerband begins to shrink at a large rate. Suggenly engines that previously had wide powerbands, begin to look like a Honda engine. Just without the gearing to make a Honda engine fast. (Bypass the portions of the powerband you don't use.)
At which point. The larger displacement engine that is not yet struggling to spool a turbine in the first 1/2 of the entire powerband. Is going to stomp all over the dead body of the smaller engine with the larger turbine.
Look at it like this. We're having an explosion of 3s-gte owners jump ship to the v6's on the MR2 platforms.
The simple fact is that the aroundish 200hp/ft-lb N/A v6's walk all over the 230hp/240ft-lb ish 3s-gte's. Even tho the 3s-gte's rpm * power out dyno much better.
350bhp 3s-gte's are no match for measily 240-260hp v6's on a drag strip, and are an insane mis-match on a road racing circuit. I know... I helped build one & we ran it against a stock C5 vette, and a 350bhp 3s-gte MR2 LoL!
The vette was easily lapped, the other MR2 was run away from.
Here's where I'm going with this:
3s-gte = better output on paper than say a 3vz-fe/1mz-fe
3s-gte completely BPU'ed >100bhp to keep up with just the tiny, weak powerband TRD blower.
3s-gte re-turbo'd takes >150bhp of a peak power advantage to outrun a mild turbo (350-550) 3vz-fe.
3s-gte is facing a 33% displacement penalty.
Guess what the 2jz's are facing against a base 1uz-fe? That's right. A 33% displacement advantage, the same compression & cam penalties...
When you put that single turbo on that 2jz-gte and give up all hopes of a descent powerband on the bottom half of your entire rpm range. And remember what I said about reciprocating weight. Drive a Toyota v6 truck, or car. Drive an SC/GS 300 of that period. (OMG GS300's are slow!), then drive an LS/SC400.
The inline 6 accellerates slowly compaired to the v engines. Blame reciprocating weight against the v6, blame more pulses & more power on the v8. But it does spin up slower. It is very obvious when you drive them. That's not the best for driving a larger turbine in a race against our example 1uz-fe either.
Realize that a 1uz-fe can use a smaller, more responcive turbo to make the same peak power. The more displacement you ahve to work with, the less work you need from the same compressor to make the same power. Make the same peak power. And have twice your entire powerband in the process
Powerband > peak power....
Atleast unless you go using 5,000rpm torque convertors.
I digress. I wouldn't touch that car, but if you were. Buy yourself a nice, used 1uz-fe. btw...
We have mentioned that 2jz-gte swaps are relatively very expencive. We've not mentioned that 1uz-fe's are dirt cheap used.
I would buy a 1uz-fe. Get the turbo/supercharger & management on the car, and working, along with the associated transmission modifications to do it.
Keep in mind you'll need to do all the maintenance.
From there, if you blow it up from a poor tune, or you want more than the enigne can safely make. Save your money & rebuild it with some of the recommended hardware you can find on this forum.
Now that not be what everyone would recommend. But it is what I advise. If nothing else, very few people that start out such projects see them through.
For that matter, buy a pair of 1uz-fe's. Build the second.
We have mentioned that 2jz-gte swaps are relatively very expencive. We've not mentioned that 1uz-fe's are dirt cheap used.
I would buy a 1uz-fe. Get the turbo/supercharger & management on the car, and working, along with the associated transmission modifications to do it.
Keep in mind you'll need to do all the maintenance.
From there, if you blow it up from a poor tune, or you want more than the enigne can safely make. Save your money & rebuild it with some of the recommended hardware you can find on this forum.
Now that not be what everyone would recommend. But it is what I advise. If nothing else, very few people that start out such projects see them through.
For that matter, buy a pair of 1uz-fe's. Build the second.
stevechumo
Active Member
Wow! Toysrme, you seem like a persuader at his best.
