Q's on cam difference between years on SC's

[kc95sc400]

I remember reading some on this but I can't seem to find the thread.

So, some questions.

Would it be worth putting 96+ non vvti cams in my boosted 95 SC? Assuming I can get some used ones for cheap and I would be putting them in myself.

What's the difference? Duration? Lift? Timing?

Would the 95 ECU have trouble with 96 cams installed? Ignition timing issues?

Guesses to how much hp it would be worth?

I think if the cams can be had for cheap and there is a potential for 15-20 hp and I'm installing them myself it would be worth it.

What do you guys think?

KC

 

[ed_ma61]

4/5ths of f*all difference i'd say

a poofteeth here or there isnt going to transform your motor, and for the expense and time of disassembly and reshimming, i could think of 100 things id rather do

 

[kc95sc400]

4/5ths of f*all difference i'd say

a poofteeth here or there isnt going to transform your motor, and for the expense and time of disassembly and reshimming, i could think of 100 things id rather do

Keep in mind I'm pushing about 10 psi of boost. The difference would be more significant than with an NA motor.

Also, I've already done about 100 things. And, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to see you 100 things list.

KC

 

[ed_ma61]

ok, sorry, i meant to say

"wow, what a great idea, i reckon youd get 30hp easy"

come on, seriously. cam timing affects rpm. poofy little increase in lift (measurable in the 0.Xmm range) and maybe a duration change measurable in the single digits isnt going to shift the dynamic operating range of the engine around. doesnt matter if its boosted or not, sfa rpm movement = sfa measurable difference.

reminds me of the yankee-fact from years ago about 7mge cams in a 7mgte. price of 7mge cams went off the dial, but soon everyone went really quiet, and not a dyno graph ever produced to suggest it was worth it!

lol

 

[ed_ma61]

and rather than me waste my time listing 100 things you could do, and risk you already being able to list them as done, hows about you list the 100 things youve done, and ill then give you some extra ideas that would still be better than pulling your heads apart for no good reason

 

[kc95sc400]

ok, sorry, i meant to say

"wow, what a great idea, i reckon youd get 30hp easy"

come on, seriously. cam timing affects rpm. poofy little increase in lift (measurable in the 0.Xmm range) and maybe a duration change measurable in the single digits isnt going to shift the dynamic operating range of the engine around. doesnt matter if its boosted or not, sfa rpm movement = sfa measurable difference.

reminds me of the yankee-fact from years ago about 7mge cams in a 7mgte. price of 7mge cams went off the dial, but soon everyone went really quiet, and not a dyno graph ever produced to suggest it was worth it!

lol

No need for sarcasim, I'm asking cause I don't know.

Anyway, if the cams don't make a difference then why do the 96+ non vvti cars dyno way higher than the 95- cars. Aside from the cams I think the only other difference is the jump form 10 to 1 to 10.4 to 1.

I also think that any increase in lift and duration could make a difference, especailly when boosting.

I am no expert, again, this is why I'm asking.

KC

 

[ed_ma61]

I also think that any increase in lift and duration could make a difference, especailly when boosting.

on the scale youre talking about, no it wont

and whats boosted got to do with it? they abide by the same laws of fluid dynamics as all other engines

 

[ed_ma61]

way more profitable and sensible approach to modification if youve already done a few things:

http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9356

 

[kc95sc400]

on the scale youre talking about, no it wont

and whats boosted got to do with it? they abide by the same laws of fluid dynamics as all other engines

Well, for any given length of time the valves are open, more air is getting to the combustion chamber over NA since the air is compressed.

way more profitable and sensible approach to modification if youve already done a few things:

http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9356

Yes, I've had my eye on this but it doesn't appear he plans to produce them and I have no fab / welding skills.

and rather than me waste my time listing 100 things you could do, and risk you already being able to list them as done, hows about you list the 100 things youve done, and ill then give you some extra ideas that would still be better than pulling your heads apart for no good reason

Ok, I don't really have 100 things of course and the motor is unopened. So, I'll list some stuff I've done to make the car faster.

Installed EKT (IMF) headers. http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10302

The rest of the exhaust will be changed sooner than later cause it sucks.

Installed the fish with a Vortech V-9 and 2.4 inch pulley.

Intercooler.

Colder plugs of course.

Cold air intake to the supercharger.

Made my own manual belt tensioner.

EGR delete.

Supra 315 injectors.

High flow fuel pump.

FPR VSV delete.

Mild weight reduction.

Supra LSD.

Dragon 2800 stall converter.

Type 4 fluid, I've heard this make the box shift harder.

Tightened kick down cable.

Took all the play out of the throttle cable.

Coolant bypass, IAC valve and throttle body.

Coolder thermostat.

MAP conversion via the MAFTPro.

275's in the rear.

Supra struts / with lowering springs.

Made 310 rwhp at 7.4 psi before the headers and the smaller supercharger pulley.

Probably a few others that I'm forgetting at the moment.

And please remember, I'm talking about getting them cheap (say 50 bucks plus or minus) and spending a couple of hours installing them. If I were to get 15-20 hp this would be a very good dollar to hp ratio, much better than what some people spend.

I am of course open to any of your 100 things I haven't done.

KC

 

[kc95sc400]

Also, electric fan conversion.

KC

 

[z8]

KC95 -
There would be no need to swap out the exhaust cams as they are the same duration; however, the intake cams have 8 degrees more duration. I would think that on a boosted motor this would be quite significant. I do not claim to be an expert on this ... maybe somebody with more experience with these boosted motors might chime in on this.
Ernie

 

[gloverman]

KC95 - Another difference in the later motors other than Intake cam and compression is they use a greatly improved set of exhaust manifolds( still crap but heaps better than the early ones)
Another note is the "kick Down" cable is not a kick down cable but rather a trans pressure cable , kick down is regulated by the TPS and kick down switch inside the cabin under the accerator pedal.
Another thought would be optimising your cam timing - some adjustable gears and plenty of time to adjust. Or a light cam grind - same amount of work as fitting later model cams but a better gain.
Cheers

 

[ed_ma61]

thats 8* @ base timing
that is going to be even less of a difference at 50thou, which is where any measurable difference is calculated from

and i think you underestimate the scale of the job. $50 and a couple of hours? youre going to need to reshim your engine. assume all 32 shims will need moving around, with at least 16 of your shims being unreusable in size. yeah, you may be able to find the right ones from a wrecked engine, but youll probably need to buy atleast a handful new. the down time whilst figuring all that out, isnt just a few hours, and it isnt $50

google 7mge cam upgrade for 7mgte

honestly, 310hp at wheels running 10psi doesnt sound right. my NA engine makes 315hp around 6000rpm, and hasnt come on cam yet (420hp@wheels at 9300rpm). a friends stock, unopened 1uz (vvti not functioing) with engine management and basic headers is making 270hp peak at wheels. youve got a 10psi advanage here, so something is wrong with the efficiency of your engine.

id suggest time spent looking at the manifold will fundamentally change your engine dynamics (better intake velocity profile). thats basically a bolt on proposition too. just need to get one made

and it needs a good tune. do you have an aftermarket ecu? get yourself on a dyno and spend some coin on getting it running right.

 

[XR8tt]

Some ground or billet cams would be my option, with better springs..
s/c engines seem to like more exhaust timing..

Turbo seem to be better with more inlet timing with plenty of lift, very little overlap, wide LSA...

 

[kc95sc400]

Dude, starting to get annoyed.

First off, if your NA engine is making 315rwhp, you have something fancy going on. Otherwise, I don't buy it. The pre 96 SC400's are well known to dyno at an underwelming 170 rwp. I made 310rwhp AT 7.4 psi. This is a 140 rwhp gain on what these cars average on the dyno. This is 18.91 rwhp per psi. That dyno was also BEFORE installing headers and putting a smaller pulley on the blower.

My engine runs fine and I think most people around here would agree that these gains are very good. More so when you consider that the Vortech V-9 F-trim blower is one of Vortech's least flowing units and probably a little small for the 4.0 motor.

I do not underestimate the scale of the job. I am a Toyota tech and I work at a dealership. It would probably take me about 45 minutes to have the cams on the bench. I will agree with you that measuring for shims would be painstaking, but, the parts department is a 20 second walk from my bay.

So, unless you would like to start listing some of the 100 things that are better that aren't on my list, please leave it alone. I already know you don't think it's worth it. Sorry if I'm sounding like an ass but enough is enough. Simple question, yes or no, your answer is no, I get it.

OK, I'm done.

I would love to have that manifold. I do agree that a short runner manifold would be a far better mod.

KC

thats 8* @ base timing
that is going to be even less of a difference at 50thou, which is where any measurable difference is calculated from

and i think you underestimate the scale of the job. $50 and a couple of hours? youre going to need to reshim your engine. assume all 32 shims will need moving around, with at least 16 of your shims being unreusable in size. yeah, you may be able to find the right ones from a wrecked engine, but youll probably need to buy atleast a handful new. the down time whilst figuring all that out, isnt just a few hours, and it isnt $50

google 7mge cam upgrade for 7mgte

honestly, 310hp at wheels running 10psi doesnt sound right. my NA engine makes 315hp around 6000rpm, and hasnt come on cam yet (420hp@wheels at 9300rpm). a friends stock, unopened 1uz (vvti not functioing) with engine management and basic headers is making 270hp peak at wheels. youve got a 10psi advanage here, so something is wrong with the efficiency of your engine.

id suggest time spent looking at the manifold will fundamentally change your engine dynamics (better intake velocity profile). thats basically a bolt on proposition too. just need to get one made

and it needs a good tune. do you have an aftermarket ecu? get yourself on a dyno and spend some coin on getting it running right.

 

[cribbj]

Ed, PM'd you.

KC, don't let Ed get up your nose; you're making great power for an unopened engine. Ed is just winding you up in his own inimitable way.

To compare your stock, unopened engine to his would be like comparing Sophia Loren (stock) to Michael Jackson (highly modified).....

BTW Ed, how's that motor of yours running?

 

[ed_ma61]

kablewy!!!

 

[ed_ma61]

have you googled 7mge cams into 7mgte upgrade yet?

someone smarter than me once said something like "the difference between us humans and the apes is our ability to record history... the advancement of our species is in our ability to avoid making the same mistakes as our predecessors"

or something equally noble

dont believe me about the cams? dont think its much of a job to tackle? then go for it. but just humour me and check out what other people have done and tried in the past before getting excited about a surge in horse powahs

and yeah, i still reckon 310rwhp is a bit strange. no offence!

if your NA engine is making 315rwhp, you have something fancy going on.

no, my NA is/was (kaboom!) making around 420rwhp. 315 is the number at around 6-6500rpm before coming on cam. my point is, rather than looking for the HARD way of making more power, look at what holding yours back already. cam timing will only change the rpm band of the engine, and who says the rest of the engine wants to meet the cams there? make it work better where it is. whats your tourque curve look like? bring peak tourque up higher. fiddle with the manifold tuning to make it work in the right rpm band for your cams as is. god knows what the tuned length of those headers are, but see what diff they make ON THE DYNO (seat-o-pants-o-meter means nothing)

i reckon youll find some coin in making the intake manifold work better

 

[kc95sc400]

Ok, pulled the new model doc off of TIS. This is for the OBDII engines and lists changes that apply to both the 95 LS and the 96 SC. First thing I noticed is that the engine did not change on the SC until 96 which is good news for me. I have the thicker rods.

Other points of interest that affect the engines power output include:

Lightweight cam and crank gears.

The addition of 8 degrees cam timing on the intake cams. Also states more lift but doesn't say how much. Lower tension valve springs.

Light weight (weak) rods. Lower tension on the piston rings.

The exhaust manifolds ARE NOT changed between the 95 sc and the 96 SC according to this document.

So other than the cams the power difference seems to come from less rotating mass and less interal friction. Seems to me that the cams are likely making the biggest difference here. IF, it was as simple as saying that there's only a 10 base hp difference between to two motors that would be one thing. It's the fact that 96-97 SC's DYNO with around 30 more rwhp that has my attention.

Check the attatchment, good stuff.

KC