injected LPG

[R-Jay]

are there parts available to do this mod yet??

even ford and holden have them on the falcon and commodore ranges already, so what are your (anyone who might be interested) thoughts on it?

i like the idea of running LPG in the future due to the smoother operation you'd get from a slower burning fuel... that and a higher octane rating so knock will be less of an issue = higher compression + higher boost safely.... plus it would seem to be easier to tune....

anyhow, i know there have been posts on this topic before... but has anyone ever looked at either the falcon's or commodore's injected lpg systems before? if so, would it be even possible to adapt a similar system (if not using the gm or ford parts is possible at all) to an fi'd uz motor?

i also know that generally, most pump lpg is 98min-100ish RON (aust) which is better than the range of PULP's out there even though they advertise at 98 octane.... but you can get 100% propane on pump at "Supagas" stations apparently... that and the fact that LPG costs a less than half what PULP costs by heaps... the cost of the conversion would pay itself off very quick if pertrol prices keep rising the way they are at the moment...

anyhow, was just thinking out loud......

 

[cribbj]

I'm wanting to do LPG also, however it's been really difficult to get good tech specs on injectors. About the only thing I've been able to find out is that most injectors top out around 40-45 BHP each, so for an FI application, they'd need to be doubled. Apparently there's only 3-4 OEM's for the injectors, and everyone else just repackages and relabels the same ones.

Also, I haven't been able to get the vendors to tell me if the injectors will work with a standalone ECU or they require their own dedicated LPG unit.

Guess I/you/somebody is going to have to buy a system, take it apart, figure out what makes it tick & come back & expose it for everybody!

John

 

[R-Jay]

hehe, i dunno about buying the system just to find out... maybe just actually go look at some parts, or better yet, ask some manufacturers/suppliers.....

i will do just that on monday... i'll give Gas Research a call and find out about their efi LPG setups.... and from there i'll see what i can find out about injectors and such....

with the cost of petrol, this is a very realistic mod for those guys using their beasts as daily drivers.....

 

[urtwhistle]

hey, i did quite alot of research on gas injection. gas research deal in "Prinz" gas injection systems. there is a guy in australia i think hes in the eastern states. who was making a system he belevied could supplyenough gas for 7-8 psi of boost http://gas-injection.com . his system was a direct plug and play systerm that plugged straight into the standard computer . seeemed like a good system but i dont think he is selling his systems yet.

i also think the only way to get enough gas would be running duel injectors to get the amount gas u would need for big hp. but then if he can get enough gas through 1 injecter with 8psi of boost double injectors would be a preety good option.

sorry bout my dodgy english in the words of ralph wiggum off the simpsons- "me fail english, thats unpossible"

 

[R-Jay]

well, there are a few options when it comes to injected LPG...

there's the vapour injection and liquid injection...

urtwhistle, the link you provided is interesting as it is the same company i was going to call up monday... seeing as they're only down the road from me... joyful!!! I actually found their contact doing a search on the online whitepages site... will see what they say later on after talking to them.....

Their results really make vapour injection an attractive system... BUT... seeing as i will be running FI and a piggyback ecu, im thinking even a liquid injection system would work equally, if not better..... now for a little more research and to start finding suppliers/prices....

 

[cribbj]

He doesn't have a commercially available system yet - he's done a proof of concept, but needs investors in order to commercialise it. Seems like a cool guy and he certainly knows his stuff with LPG.

BTW, I don't know that anyone has successfully done liquid LPG injection yet. Lots of rumors floating around, but the only thing I've found that's definitive is a research project going on at a University in TX. The one company in Holland or Italy (forget which) who claim to have a liquid injection system, don't answer emails.

LPG has such a low boiling point, it must be a real bear to keep it in a liquid state long enough to get it through an injector.
John

 

[R-Jay]

wouldn't keeping it in liquid state be as simple as keeping pressure high enough (which isnt that high anyhow) to keep it flowing?

GRA has been playing around with possible liqiud injection systems for awhile i think... i'll call them today also... they seem to be the best place to start for research and parts sourcing...

 

[cribbj]

It sounds simple enough to increase the pressure to keep it in a liquid state, but the vapor pressure of propane at 100 degrees C is around 43 bar..... Even at 50 degrees C, the vapor pressure is still nearly 18 bar. AFAIK, the maximum pressure in a "typical" LPG tank at normal ambient conditions is around 20 bar, so that doesn't leave much room for pressure reduction from consumption.

Seems like a mini-compressor would be required just to keep the stuff in a liquid state, and at that point, I'd be wondering is it really worth it?
John

 

[urtwhistle]

i personly like standalone gas cars just because of how clean they run, no carbon build or a hellof a lot lesss any way.

Prinz is the company that makes gas injection system that gas research deals in.. i send the gas injection guy a email like once ever 2 months to see if hes got it off the ground or not. i asked him last time to see if he could source us some high flow injecters but no answer yet

 

[urtwhistle]

hey, sorry for a double post but i got a reply from bill. here is his reply
he says he has supplied a kit for a lexus v8 in a kit car. his injecters will flow 33 kw each which sounds alot less then wat he originaly told me.

 

[cribbj]

Still might be interesting - it depends at what fuel pressure he has to run to get that output. Some injectors have to go to 1.5 or 1.7 bar to get 33kW (45 HP). If he can do that at 1.0 bar for example, then raising the pressure will get a higher output. Why don't you ask him what fuel pressure he was using to get those numbers, and also ask him what the maximum deltaP would be for continuous operation?

Has he gone commercial now? The last time I corresponded with him, he had only done a few proof of concept cars, and he couldn't/wouldn't sell any injectors until he had investor funding.
John

 

[cyberdiamond]

I have had a LPG "Liquid" injection computer and hand controller now for about 10 years.

Before you ask where you can get one the answer is you can't.
The system I have got was a prototype and there were only around 6-10 made.
There was a lot less of the hand controllers, I can't find anyone that knows how many (maybe only a couple)
They got brought out by a big company and the idea put under the shelf.

Benifits to liquid lpg injection:

Approx 10% more power and 10% more torque due to the liquid lpg changing state from a liquid to a gas reducing the intake temp.

You can travel the same distane per litre of fuel. Which as most people know lpg has less energy per litre so that is no mean feat!

 

[urtwhistle]

hey got that reply for u.

bill says About 20psi and maximum deltaP would be 80psi. hope that helps out.

 

[ecKo.]

any updates on this topic its been awhile