Hubcentric Adaptors (Spigot Rings)

[cribbj]

I made an alarming discovery last week when I lost one of the center caps from the Volk wheels on my Supra; I didn't have hubcentric adaptors on all 4 wheels!

For those who are not familiar with these things, here's a bit of preliminary background. All wheels for late model cars must be centered on the wheel "hub", which is a raised lip (about 1/4" to 3/8" high on my Supra) that protrudes out past the disc brake rotor. On Supras, Lexi, and most other Toyota cars, this lip is 60.1mm outside diameter.

Now most aftermarket wheels have an interior hub that "sort of" matches up to this lip, however in order to fit as many applications as possible, this interior dimension may be larger than the 60.1mm of our Toyota/Lexus product. In fact, my Volk F-Zero Challenge wheels have an interior hub diameter of 73.1mm. So I've got 13mm of "slop" between my wheels and my hubs.

So what? That's why we have conical lug nuts, so that the wheel will "center" itself evenly on the lugs, right? Then once the wheel is torqued to spec, the "friction" of the wheel hub surface on the car hub surface will keep it in place, right? Wrong. This is called "lug centric" mounting, which is an older method that is no longer suitable with the smaller diameter lugs used in today's imported cars.

So, back to my 13mm of slop - there are "Hubcentric Adaptors" available which adapt wheels to various size wheel hubs and "take up" this slop. In my case, after talking with Mackin (the US reps for Volk/Rays) they recommended a polyurethene hubcentric adaptor which was a perfect fit into the tapered face and 73.1mm bore of my Volk wheels, plus did not protrude out past the surface of the wheel. I installed these this morning as shown in the following photos.

I also discovered that I did have hubcentric adaptors on my two front wheels, however these little aluminum rings (73.1mm OD x 60.1mm ID) had wedged themselves deeper into the wheels' bore and were no longer providing a good seating surface for the Supra's hub.

Conclusions:
1. If you're running aftermarket wheels, be sure that you're running hubcentric adaptors that fit both your car and your wheels.

2. Make sure the adaptors are actually providing a seating surface for both the wheel and the car's hub.

Peter Scott has an excellent article on hubcentric adaptors (spigot rings) here: http://planetsoarer.com/offset/studs.htm

 

[pull_85]

i have these all round on my celsior,
mine are plastic tho, and they are damn hard to get off
they came with my wheels when i got them fitted,

 

[Muzza_NZ]

Good call on the adapters. I had some made up specially out of 316ss and loctited in place (on the wheel), I'd hate to think how out of balance things could become with only a small amount of torque on the wheel.

 

[Peewee]

The requirement of hubcentricity to me is a load of crap.

The nuts centre the rim, the fact that the hub centre is the same size as the rim centre in OEM applications is purely for locating purposes.

Just take a look at how hard a disc is to remove compared to a wheel.
Most of the time you need to use the 2 bolt holes in the disc to remove a disc from a hub.
If a wheel relied on hubcentricity like a brake disc does, then you would have a lot of problems removing a wheel by hand.

Any setup where the nuts (lugs) are tapered the rim centred purely by the nuts.
In Toyota OEM apps its normally a parallel shank on the nut, and if not installed properly the wheel can be slightly off centre and cause an imbalance.
But if you do the nuts up in the correct method it centres fine.

I will accept that in extreme circumstances (hitting a pothole or large kerb at speed) that the hub centre may take some weight, but only if the nuts are slightly loose.


If you want proof go measure the stock setup.
You'll find that the hub centre is 60.1mm, and the rim centre is 60.15 or 60.2mm.
If they were truely hubcentric the rim centre would be 60.1mm as well.

Also the hub centre sticks out about 8mm in most applications.
If you look at the rim centre you'll see that the first 5mm or so is not 60.1mm, but starts closer to 68mm and tapers to allow ease of locating.

This give a 3mm section where the hub and the rim may touch.

There is no way 3mm contact between the rim and the hub is taking the weight of the car while cornering.
Its just not physically possible.


I've just driven 9000km in 2 weeks on nonhuncentred wheels across some of the worst roads in the country with absolutely zero issues.

All that said, I will be making my rims hubcentric soon purely as its required for legal purposes.

That my 2c and thoughts on the subject.

 

[cribbj]

There's an interesting discussion on these things here:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=152939&page=1

and the opinions seem pretty evenly divided.

In my case, IMO there's just not enough friction surface between the Volk wheels and my Supra's hubs to give me a warm fuzzy feeling when the lugs are torqued down, so I prefer to have the hubcentric rings.

 

[fugly]

In the last 20yrs of driving around on crappy sealed & dirt roads in north Queensland, i don't think i've ever had a rim on any of my cars that has actually located on the centre spigot & i've never had any problems

 

[SC400TT]

My rings are metal, not plastic. I also just had the brake manufacturer that built me a set of custom BBK's for front and rear machine me a set of aircraft grade billet aluminum Hub-Centric rings for my rims...

I read the thread on the pros and cons of this theory, and it is difficult to be sure which is more accurate. I do know that the Lexus suspension is rather sensitive, and I use the rings to make sure there are no vibration issues...

Ryan

 

[cribbj]

Guess this is a grey area, but when one of Enkei's designers recommends them, and they receive a strong endorsement from Ronal, and the US representative for Volk recommends them as well, those IMO are pretty good reasons for having them.

And none of these people sell them, or stand to profit from the sale.

 

[fugly]

I'm by no means saying they are not a good idea, if you feal safer with them use them, just saying in my experience i've never had any problems with wheels that haven't located properly on the centre spigot

 

[stevechumo]

Peewee,

I agree with you on most of other things respectively. However, on this hub centric thing, I'm somewhat having different ideas and experiences. If the wheels fitting on the spindle without the hub centric rings and they just rely on the centered lug nuts, the wheels will eventually break the wheel studs due to the weight of the whole car. Fast speed, dips, and bumps can all cause the problem. I've seen this situation for at least 4 times and read about it a lot.

The factory wheels don't need any hub centric adapter rings because they're designed to fit tightly on the spindles (not the lug nut holes) with those little spindle protruding lips. The lug nut holes themselves can get out of place easily.

On aftermarket wheels, there's always 1 hub centric adapter ring that sits between each wheel and the spindle tightly. Some adapters are made of plastic, and some are made of aluminum (best).

All kinds of wheels (factory and aftermarket) need to be centered by the lug nuts. However, the lug nuts are not strong enough to hold 3000 - 4000 lbs, that's why the spindle come in and mainly support the wheels. I'm currently using the custom adapters, 1/4" thickness for the front and 1/2" thickness for the rear. These have the holes that sit tightly on the spindles and have the lips that sit right in the middle of the wheels. They totally eliminate all street surface vibrations that I had before. My adapters look exactly like the one in the left corner, but they only have 5 holes. I also had to use longer wheel studs to fit the wheels.

 

[Peewee]

Every time I've seen a pic of a hub after a wheel has fallen off there has always been 2 or 3 studs that are still good.

As per this pic



(I had another one lined up, except its been taken down )

Anyway, with those 2 studs perfect, it means those nuts have come loose.
With 2 nuts loose, only 3 nuts are holding the wheel to the hub.
No way will 3 nuts be enough to safely hold a wheel to a hub around a corner.

Yes, a ring that was hubcentred may have not come off in that exact instance, but with 2 nuts gone, it would only have been a matter of time until they did.

MOST of the damage is caused by tyre shops doing the nuts up too tight and stretching the studs. Therefore making it quite easy for the nut to come loose over time.


Also, go have a look at the contact between the hub and rim in a factory setup.
I did this on my Cressida, here is what I found (I had pics earlier in this explaining each step, so it made more sense)

Take a look at the hub.

Toyota engineers have decided that you need about 20mm contact between the hub and the spindle per corner, to transfer all the weight (2 x 10mm bearings).

Now look at the outside of the hub.
There is only a very small portion that is hubcentric.

Lets measure it. What do we get?
~7.6mm

7.6mm is a FAR CRY from the 20mm that the bearings carry.
Thats about 30% that can be carried by the hubcentric bit.

Now lets look at the wheel.

The edge of the wheel isn't flat, its tapered.
Lets measure this section that makes contact between the rim and hub.

4.4mm!!!

Now 4.4/20 is LESS THAN 25%

I'm sorry, no way is 4.4mm per corner taking any serious weight.

Also, go back and look at some of the older Land Cruisers.
The front hub (with the locking bit) is about 110mm in diameter.
The rear hub was only about 75mm in diameter.
Yet the factory rims were interchangeable front to rear.
So the rear ones had a ~15mm gap between the hub and rim.
All the load was taken by the self-centering nuts.


Any way, I've said all I can be bothered on the subject.
The benefits of having the rim hubcentric outweigh the cost of having it done is not in question, but to say its required for safety reasons is going to far IMO.

 

[Beazle]

It all comes down to the fact that some of the hubcentric adaptors you guys are talking about are made out of PLASTIC. That should tell you something about wheater or not it is going to hold up the car. The weight of the car and the transfer of torque is acomplished by the studs. Hubcentric adaptors are just used to locate the wheel on the hub so it centered (hence the name). As long as you are not expierencing a vibration (thats not otherwise explained) then I don't see a problem not having them.

 

[stevechumo]

It all comes down to the fact that some of the hubcentric adaptors you guys are talking about are made out of PLASTIC. That should tell you something about wheater or not it is going to hold up the car...

Actually, I had used the plastic hubcentric adaptors and they're fine. I had no problem with them for years. Aluminum is better than plastic for sure. But I also agree with you that the hubcentric adaptors are to locate the wheel right in the center of the spindle, thus distributing the weight even to all the wheel studs. This will eliminate any vibrations that cause the stud breakage.

 

[Zuffen]

A friend of mine ran Commodore wheels on his 5 series BMW.

The only way he could centre the wheels was with a dial guage.

With hubcentric adaptors it would have been a doddle.

Yes they do a job. They centre the wheel. End of storey.

 

[stevechumo]

....Yes they do a job. They centre the wheel. End of storey.

Hooray! :arms:

 

[StiCk3]

could running w/o the rings cause alignment issues? my 97 SC came with 18s and the car has trouble staying staight on unevenly paved roads. i check the service records for any previous problems and found that they were installed w/o rings....ill check tommorow when i put my winter slicks on

 

[stevechumo]

could running w/o the rings cause alignment issues? my 97 SC came with 18s and the car has trouble staying staight on unevenly paved roads. i check the service records for any previous problems and found that they were installed w/o rings....ill check tommorow when i put my winter slicks on

The rings have nothing to do with the service record from the dealer. The 18s" might be the aftermarket ones. I don't have time the time to check with my stock rims, but I think stock rims don't have the rings. They fit perfectly. Perhaps whomever serviced your car forgot to put the rings on. You're very lucky to find out about it so soon!!!!!!!!!

 

[StiCk3]

^^Sorry they are aftermarket Niche Rhines that the guy bought seperatly then gave it to the dealer shop to install. The mechanic mentioned in the report that it needed hubcentric rings and it might have alignment probs. ill check today when i change to winter slicks

 

[StiCk3]

just finished putting on my wheels...with flats (grr...) i confirmed mechanics report aobut missing hubcentric rings for the aftermarket wheels. any comments on alignment issues?

 

[stevechumo]

just finished putting on my wheels...with flats (grr...) i confirmed mechanics report aobut missing hubcentric rings for the aftermarket wheels. any comments on alignment issues?

It's not even safe to drive. Why would you want to align them?