How much wheel horsepower to aim for?

[ParaDoX667]

Hi everyone at Lextreme,

Been reading for a little while now (great wealth of info here)

I'm currently in the 'design and planning' stages of a project and not sure how much power to aim for, the plan is to have a N/A 1uzfe in a ra23 celica before the end of the year....(will probably blow out but still)....

I was originally thinking 330 wheel hp in a sub 1000kg car would make it VERY entertaining .... but then got to thinking - would that be enough or too much?

I also got to thinking about whether 330 wheel hp will be achievable from an N/A 1u....and should I just supercharge to begin with...

The aim of the car is for some hillclimbs, motorkhanas and just a regular streeter (weekend car not a daily driver)

I'm pretty sure I'm going to have some major traction issues along with some fitment issues but they will come down the track

Any thoughts / directions / half thought out ideas welcome to help me along with the design path

Cheers...
Ben

 

[Toysrme]

I admit I don't play with them...
But you can make power on nearly anything, if you have enough resources & will-power to do so.

My train of thought as to how to do an engine build is always a combination of atleast:
1) The overall goal of the engine
2) What resources do you want to spend
3) How, exactly, do you want the engine to preform
VS
What you adamantly are opposed to not doing.


There are just so many different ways to do something. You always get into generalizing what everything performance like, yet there are just as many times a generalization is wrong.

 

[Pro]

welcome to the site.

i would suggest you look into aftermarket engine management, 7MGTE 440cc injectors, a set of cams, honda CBR coil-on-plugs and an individual inlet runner setup with a good exhaust (which will be custom anyways in a celica).

all are advertised on this site, so a quick search would reveal a wealth of info.

enjoy your stay.

 

[ParaDoX667]

Cheers guys,

I was more meaning - is 330whp going to be enough, too much, or just plain ridiculous? Once I've bought the engine I'll be reading up on all the performance enhancements (the ones listed are a good start for me though - so cheers) ....

But thanks for the good start

 

[Peewee]

Check with your Transport Authorities as to whether this is a legal swap or not.

Current regs in some states say that this would not be legal, while other states would pass it.
When the new National Regulations come in, lightest legal conversion will be 992kg PRE-conversion weight (ie, factory statistics).

I'm not 100% on the RA23 weight, I know it will be close.


Apart from that, 330rwhp in NA form WILL require, as a minimum, extractors, programmable ecu, cams (fairly mild), injector upgrade, and most likely some intake manifold modification.

Have a read of this.
http://www.toymods.net/forums/showpost.php?p=56046&postcount=15

While its not to be taken as gospel, until someone tells me I've written some b*llsh*t, I'll keep showing it around.

 

[ParaDoX667]

Thanks PeeWee - I read that on Toymods earlier today then went hunting for weight of the RA23 and came up with this site http://www.d2.dion.ne.jp/~yama_oto/specs/spec007e.html

Which lists the RA23 as being 1075kg so that should be fine.

The N/A Route of 330 whp doesn't seem like an overlly complex way to go...whereas I don't think I could legally register a supercharged 4ltr v8 in an ra23 - based on the new rules

Cheers for the answer too.

 

[jibby]

ParaDoX667 - I am not so sure you will be able to squeeze 330whp out of an 4.0 liter 1Uz.. stock engine. Getting just to 300whp is tall order on a stock motor. With a good ECU (stand alone), full Intake and full Exhaust and some fine tuning you may be able to reach 300whp. I have been trying like crazy with my engine and just maybe I am at around the 300whp mark.. I would love to see a stock engine only Iuz.. that can put out 330whp, I would be seriously impressed. To reach the 330whp a set of nice cams would be needed and also all the above mentioned stuff and you will most likely reach your desired 330whp goal, good luck....

 

[Peewee]

Jibby, the stock cams will not flow much more than 250rwhp. (assuming gen1 1uz, gen2 1uz may reach 260rwhp).

Anything higher than this will require larger cams.

 

[jibby]

Pewee- I thought we were talking about whp or hp at the crank... I didn't even think the stock cams could flow at 260 rwhp. These Iuz.. engines are rated 250-260hp at stock new on the soarer or SC and all I am saying is with a complete performance exhaust, intake, and ECU and a good tune you may get that stock 1UZ.. up to 300whp if it is a good engine... A nice set of Kelford cams installed will probably get you to 330-340hp range... RWHP is a whole different beast, 330rwhp on an IUZ..will require one of these three things, Supercharger, Turbo, or nos....maybe 4 things, a big 5.0 engine bore, larger injectors, etc.. might get it done as well, maybe.....

 

[Peewee]

By 'whp', what do you mean?
To me the w means 'wheel'

 

[Pro]

330 rear wheel horsepower is quite achieveable out on an NA 1UZ with lumpy cams, individual throttle bodies, tuned length headers, good spark / fuel and a good tune.

it may be a pig under 4000rpm, but it's definitely do-able.

 

[Peewee]

it may be a pig under 4000rpm, but it's definitely do-able.

Its still going to have more torque at 2000rpm than the 1.8L motor that was in the car to start with.

 

[Pro]

yes.

yes it will... :smokin:

 

[jibby]

Yes Aaron, I see you dumped the 240 off your screen name..? Pro sounds better anyway....

Ok 330rwhp from 8 tb intake and cams on a 4.0L? Maybe....I still would think that would be hard to achieve but I believe you.. That 8 throttle body intake is for track use only, from what I am hearing...Anyway, very impressive.....

Peewee, please explain the difference between hp, whp, rwhp? I may be lost, I thought hp and whp were measured at the crank, and rwhp at the rear wheels.. However, "w" does stand for wheel...I could be backwards....This is embarrasing if I am wrong:34: I have always just used the terms hp and rwhp in my vocabulary...

 

[WDoherty]

a lot of honda guys use the term whp (wheel horse power) because they don't want to say front wheel horsepower, in our case, it would be the same as rwhp

 

[ParaDoX667]

I usually just say 'WHP' because I can't ever be bothered with the extra letter....
Above - when I said WHP - I meant Wheel Horse Power - being the figure of power at the wheels.

That said looks like I might have to research some perfomance mods more - NA 330whp is looking more and more difficult to achieve (Thanks for the info so far everyone) perhaps I'll just look at supercharging and not having the car road legal... we shall see

 

[jibby]

Really WDoherty? Wow, lesson learned, thanks, I should have known that..... :27:

No FWHP, with all the front wheel drive cars out their you would think that term would be used.. hhhhmmmm...

Back to subject 330whp out of an 4.0l IUZ.. without air forced induction or nos.. I still think that is a tall order to accomplish....I would like to see that (330rwhp...).

 

[WDoherty]

i think you might get a feel for how fast the car is once you do the transplant. I have a ra29 celica with the 22r and about 100hp. It moves itself along quite allright, so imagine your car with 230hp at least twice the jump and you are talking about a swift car. with good exactors and exhaust this should get you at least 20-30hp extra. Then a decent set of cams should give 40-50hp. So you could easily be in the 300+ crank hp range with those mods and a good tune. That's alot of hp for a celica, and should be a quick car.

 

[MWP]

The aim of the car is for some hillclimbs, motorkhanas and just a regular streeter (weekend car not a daily driver)

So road registered then... you need to go see an engineer about this ASAP.
What people say on forums about this kinda stuff means squat.
Its all up to the engineer and rego what you can do.

I can recommend Doug Potts who you can call at 8271 4573.
He is looking after my conversion, so he will already have an idea whats involved (hes very happy with the way im doing it).
Hes also a nice guy and will talk for ages... he seemed genuinly interested in my plans.
He will want all your car info, engine info, and your plans for brakes, suspension, gearbox (incl ratios), diff, wheels, tyres, etc which you should have on paper to give him during the first meeting at his office.
The more paper you can give him with details on parts youll use, specs, etc the better.

Approx engineering costs for my conversion will be around $2k which includes track testing he does at AIR for brakes, suspension, etc.

So the best idea would be to go 100% stock for engineering and rego, then beef up the engine later.

BTW... 330rwhp is a LOT for a 1000KG car.
Remember too its torque that makes a quick road car, not always high end HP.
The V8s got lots of it, so you may not need as much rwhp as you think.

 

[ParaDoX667]

Thanks Mark....

I haven't even sat down and worked all of those details out yet....

Guess I should do that as a priority - and get the car engineered too with a 'stock' 1uz then when I get used to that build the power up

Cheers all for the replies so far - very helpful.