Anyone gone with an electric power steering pump?
- Thread starter 4000GT
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The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
Peewee, you are a funny and straight up kind of guy... There is no holding back in your posts that's for sure...:drillsergeant:
Now let's just say if one were to remove the belt driven power steering pump to free up a few ponies by going with an electric steering pump would you really be an idiot? Typically if you remove drag from the crank by removing the PS pump, or even the hydo pump to electric fans (5-10whp), A/C (7whp when in use) could you just be desperate for a few extra ponies and maybe not an idiot? You probably will gain a few ponies with the electric PS swap.... Belt drag off the crank is real power loss....
Cost vs. power gains is a different story...If you are spending $700 to gain 3whp then I have to agree with Peewee...
Now to rationalize this further what is the weight difference between an oil driven and heavy PS pump and resevior as apposed to a lighter weight electric power steering pump? Front end weight loss is another form of gains that can be considered... What real actual power gains would be made from that swap? Does anyone know for fact what real gains could be made?... Naturally there will be a little more drag on the alternator with that swap which will create more drag off the crank..
All in all Peewee I have to agree with you, do the change to free up room in the engine compartment but don't do it to expect real power or performance gains on a street ride...The money would be better spent in other mods...
To free up room, its a damn good idea.
Next time you have accessories belt off, turn the PS pump by hand.
See how freely it turns? Thats how much HP it 'sucks' while driving in a straight line. Check the AC too, you'll find its the same.
The PS pump only sucks HP when you turn. the more load (ie, parking the car) the more HP it sucks. Last I checked I wasn't worried about saving HP in a carpark.
Now lets assume you put on an electric pump.
The power for that pump comes from the battery.
The battery is charged by the alternator
The alternator is driven by, oh my, you guessed it, the CRANK!
Now lets take a leap of faith here and assume that the efficiencies of an electric PS pump and mechanical PS pump are similar (in terms of ability to pump X volume of oil).
So, lets assume the pumps draw say 5hp.
The mechanical pump will draw 5hp.
The electrical pump will draw 5hp too. But, like most electric motors, its probably only 80% efficient (in converting electrical power to mechanical power). so that 5hp output is drawing a 6.25hp load on the battery.
Now, that battery power comes from the alternator, which inturn is probably only 80% efficient at turning mechanical power into electrical power.
So that 6.25hp is really 7.8hp.
So your 5hp electric pump is 'sucking' up to 8hp at full load.
The exact same principle applies to electric water pumps.
With today's designs in water pumps, fans, ps pumps, etc, there is very little to be gained by converting to electric. For the most part electric pumps are used for reasons that do not involve hp 'saving'.
They are used for space saving, weight saving in extreme circumstances, because they suit the application better (eg. EWP's in burnout cars)
If you go back to the 70's where designs weren't as efficient, then you may very well see further gains.
Peewee
New Member
Depends on why.
If you are doing it to get rid of the belt driven pump, then you are an idiot.
If you are doing it to make room for a turbo manifold, or something similar, then its a good idea.
AFAIK the MR2's use them, so one out of an SW20 *may* be big enough.
Not sure though.
If you are doing it to get rid of the belt driven pump, then you are an idiot.
If you are doing it to make room for a turbo manifold, or something similar, then its a good idea.
AFAIK the MR2's use them, so one out of an SW20 *may* be big enough.
Not sure though.
one of my contacts has done it on a local 1uz powered mitsi L300 van. I also have heard of several stock cars using electric PS pumps. One problem is the SW20 use a power steer ecu to control the pump. In conversions the pump is usually supplied with constant 12volts - driving the alternator harder - putting the load staight back onto the motor. There are still issues with this system - Cheers
Peewee, you are a funny and straight up kind of guy... There is no holding back in your posts that's for sure...:drillsergeant:
Now let's just say if one were to remove the belt driven power steering pump to free up a few ponies by going with an electric steering pump would you really be an idiot? Typically if you remove drag from the crank by removing the PS pump, or even the hydo pump to electric fans (5-10whp), A/C (7whp when in use) could you just be desperate for a few extra ponies and maybe not an idiot? You probably will gain a few ponies with the electric PS swap.... Belt drag off the crank is real power loss....
Cost vs. power gains is a different story...If you are spending $700 to gain 3whp then I have to agree with Peewee...
Now to rationalize this further what is the weight difference between an oil driven and heavy PS pump and resevior as apposed to a lighter weight electric power steering pump? Front end weight loss is another form of gains that can be considered... What real actual power gains would be made from that swap? Does anyone know for fact what real gains could be made?... Naturally there will be a little more drag on the alternator with that swap which will create more drag off the crank..
All in all Peewee I have to agree with you, do the change to free up room in the engine compartment but don't do it to expect real power or performance gains on a street ride...The money would be better spent in other mods...
Damien
New Member
You don't reduce the drag on the engine by converting everything to electric. The alternator requires more power (from the crank) to generate the extra electricity.
Say it takes 5hp to run a pump - if you convert to electric power first you lose some power along the way, so the alternator requires 7-8hp to run a 5hp pump. It's far more efficient to run a pump directly off the crank.
Say it takes 5hp to run a pump - if you convert to electric power first you lose some power along the way, so the alternator requires 7-8hp to run a 5hp pump. It's far more efficient to run a pump directly off the crank.
No, I haven't...But I have deleted my hydo pump and noticed power gains... I also know from experience typically when removing pumps and converting and switching to electric components is usually beneficial almost in every case....Yes, there will be more drag on the alternator but it will not compare to an actual pump that driven off the serp belt and crank...
Electrical is less drag in most cases...
Electrical is less drag in most cases...
LondonBenji
New Member
Renault Avantimes are really quite rare here in the UK so I would imagine they would be quite expensive even if you did go through a breakers yard (if you could even find one that had one).
I've seen reviews of new cars with electric PS pumps and have said it makes the steering feel very vague (sp?).... any truth to this for whatever reason?
I've seen reviews of new cars with electric PS pumps and have said it makes the steering feel very vague (sp?).... any truth to this for whatever reason?
Peewee
New Member
Yes, flat out, if you are doing it for HP saving, you are an idiot.
To free up room, its a damn good idea.
Next time you have accessories belt off, turn the PS pump by hand.
See how freely it turns? Thats how much HP it 'sucks' while driving in a straight line. Check the AC too, you'll find its the same.
The PS pump only sucks HP when you turn. the more load (ie, parking the car) the more HP it sucks. Last I checked I wasn't worried about saving HP in a carpark.
Now lets assume you put on an electric pump.
The power for that pump comes from the battery.
The battery is charged by the alternator
The alternator is driven by, oh my, you guessed it, the CRANK!
Now lets take a leap of faith here and assume that the efficiencies of an electric PS pump and mechanical PS pump are similar (in terms of ability to pump X volume of oil).
So, lets assume the pumps draw say 5hp.
The mechanical pump will draw 5hp.
The electrical pump will draw 5hp too. But, like most electric motors, its probably only 80% efficient (in converting electrical power to mechanical power). so that 5hp output is drawing a 6.25hp load on the battery.
Now, that battery power comes from the alternator, which inturn is probably only 80% efficient at turning mechanical power into electrical power.
So that 6.25hp is really 7.8hp.
So your 5hp electric pump is 'sucking' up to 8hp at full load.
The exact same principle applies to electric water pumps.
With today's designs in water pumps, fans, ps pumps, etc, there is very little to be gained by converting to electric. For the most part electric pumps are used for reasons that do not involve hp 'saving'.
They are used for space saving, weight saving in extreme circumstances, because they suit the application better (eg. EWP's in burnout cars)
If you go back to the 70's where designs weren't as efficient, then you may very well see further gains.
Peewee, you are right on.... However, when deleting the A/C, Power steering, etc...You in turn shorten the belt drive system, which will also free up a tiny bit of load on the crank... Less belt, and turns, etc..is always a good idea...
Alternator, Electric cooling fans and crank that's it...You will gain a few ponies as apposed to a long serp belt, A/C compressor, power steering pump, cooling fan hydro pump, idler pulley's, tensioners, etc.....
Just to swap in an electric power steering pump to gain power is wishful and not realistic thinking for sure..
Alternator, Electric cooling fans and crank that's it...You will gain a few ponies as apposed to a long serp belt, A/C compressor, power steering pump, cooling fan hydro pump, idler pulley's, tensioners, etc.....
Just to swap in an electric power steering pump to gain power is wishful and not realistic thinking for sure..
mycarhasposessedme
New Member
Electric motors turning the cams will sure free up some of that evil belt drag too.
Where can I get a set?
Where can I get a set?
To hell with it.
Why not delete the whole transmission and put an electric motor in each rear wheel and save huge horsepower.
Just think no hungry Universal joints gobbling up all your hard earned horsepower.
I'm sure the Lexus alternator could supply enough power!
Why not delete the whole transmission and put an electric motor in each rear wheel and save huge horsepower.
Just think no hungry Universal joints gobbling up all your hard earned horsepower.
I'm sure the Lexus alternator could supply enough power!
Not to derail the main topic here, but in the petrochem industry we're seeing big moves toward converting many pump and compressor drives to variable speed electric motors.
The power and money saved in doing this is really significant, because everywhere you're controlling pressure/flow by a combination of a throttling and a bypass valve, you're wasting power.
In addition to the power and money saved, the flexibility of control that's possible with a VSD (variable speed drive) is a lot better also.
The same arguments could be applied for the mechanical water pump and the coolant thermostat in the car engine.
For example, let's say you just made a really hard acceleration run, and your coolant temp gauge is pegged. Do you really want to slow down and let the engine idle to cool it down? With belt driven fans and water pumps, that's probably the worst thing you can do, because at idle, both the airflow and coolant flow are at their minimums. What you really want to do is let the engine idle, but be able to have lots of coolant and air running throught the cooling system, and the only way to do that is with an electric motor driven fan and pump controlled by VSD's.
I think it's for these reasons that we'll be seeing electric motors replacing the belt drives on more pumps, etc. by the automotive OEM's in the future. But by then, we'll probably have abandoned the 12v automotive system and will be driving 48v powered cars.
I can't help but wonder if the OEM's will try to replace the mechanically driven oil pump with a motor driven one, too?
The power and money saved in doing this is really significant, because everywhere you're controlling pressure/flow by a combination of a throttling and a bypass valve, you're wasting power.
In addition to the power and money saved, the flexibility of control that's possible with a VSD (variable speed drive) is a lot better also.
The same arguments could be applied for the mechanical water pump and the coolant thermostat in the car engine.
For example, let's say you just made a really hard acceleration run, and your coolant temp gauge is pegged. Do you really want to slow down and let the engine idle to cool it down? With belt driven fans and water pumps, that's probably the worst thing you can do, because at idle, both the airflow and coolant flow are at their minimums. What you really want to do is let the engine idle, but be able to have lots of coolant and air running throught the cooling system, and the only way to do that is with an electric motor driven fan and pump controlled by VSD's.
I think it's for these reasons that we'll be seeing electric motors replacing the belt drives on more pumps, etc. by the automotive OEM's in the future. But by then, we'll probably have abandoned the 12v automotive system and will be driving 48v powered cars.
I can't help but wonder if the OEM's will try to replace the mechanically driven oil pump with a motor driven one, too?
4000GT
New Member
Well after seeing my old alternator (original on the motor) die because it was full of powersteering oil, and to clear space for the turbo piping, I am on the hunt for electric PS examples on the 1UZ again.
Anyone got an SW20 PS pump handy? or know of one?
Cribbj, very interesting points... good to know
Anyone got an SW20 PS pump handy? or know of one?
Cribbj, very interesting points... good to know
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